Paying College Players and Unionization
Comments
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He's in the quoted text. I'm just happy that he's adopted the term "jagged flint" as promised.dnc said: -
Any thread that has Tequila posting in it a lot always sucks. The one exception is when the gloves are off and he's ready to roll.
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The gloves are almost always off ...
You mean I got to announce when I'm ready to roll? -
You want to take the gloves off, Race?
Let me paint a couple of scenarios that WILL happen if you just opened everything up so that the "outside forces" of a school can pay players whatever they want in a "free market"
Case #1 is a 5-star WR/CB prospect out of the LA area that all schools up and down the West Coast want. The pro's for signing this kid is that he has elite speed (he's more fast than quick) and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball. The downside is that the kid is a bit on the small side and as such finding a true position for him is a problem. The kid has always wanted to go to USC, so much so that he already has a USC tattoo. However, the week before signing day, he takes a trip to Oregon where he receives the following offer from Nike: $1M per year for each year that he stays in college, a $1M endorsement contract for every year of his professional career, and a $150k per year job working at Nike in "Athlete Relations" after retiring as a player. In contrast, USC is offering just a $1M signing bonus and $250k per year while every other school in the conference is offering $500k-$1M with comparable per year commitments. This kid ends up committing to Oregon, has a nice career there, but really doesn't have much of a NFL future because he lacks size and a position to play.
Case #2 is a 5-star QB out of the Houston area that all schools in the State of Texas, Oklahoma, and the SEC are after. The battle ends up coming down to Texas, Oklahoma St., LSU, Alabama, and Florida. Alabama puts their offer out on the table of $2M signing bonus and $750k per year because while they know that they can't compete with the $$$ that the other schools will offer, they are banking on the fact that they have superior coaching to help them out. LSU offers a $2.5M signing bonus and $750k per year and while offering similar incentives as Alabama, offers a close to home option. LSU also happened to be this kid's favorite school growing up. Florida, with perhaps the deepest AD money pool in the country sees their alumni offer a $4M package at $1M per year to help solve what has been a very piss poor QB position for years. They are tired of losing to Alabama and LSU. Texas is in a position where they are taking a lot of internal heat for the possibility that this kid may leave the state. They decide to up the ante and offer $5M up front and $1.5M per year, offer the kids parents $150k per year jobs in Austin, buy a house for the family an hour outside of Austin located on a lake with a new boat, and the promise of a job within the Texas AD after his career ends as an "Alumni Liaison" at $200k per year and a membership in the most exclusive golf club in Austin. Boone Pickens is sick and tired of losing to those assholes in Oklahoma and Texas. He decides that this QB is the difference in his program. So he decides to offer $10M to the family up front, the kid $2M per year because living in Stillwater requires that, his parents jobs with his wind energy company at $200k per year and a small ownership stake in his company, and 100k options in the company for the QB that vest after 5 years. The kid ends up choosing Oklahoma St because regardless of what happens to him on the field, he's set up financially for life with this arrangement.
These kids haven't done shit before they get to college. But what you'll end up seeing is that college football just comes down to which school has alumni that have the most money, the best connections, and winning/losing is tied to how much you are willing to pay. -
Fixed that for youPostGameOrangeSlices said:You want to take the gloves off,
RaceBoobs?
Let me paint a couple of scenarios that WILL happen if you just opened everything up so that the "outside forces" of a school can pay players whatever they want in a "free market"
Case #1 is a 5-star WR/CB prospect out of the LA area that all schools up and down the West Coast want. The pro's for signing this kid is that he has elite speed (he's more fast than quick) and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball. The downside is that the kid is a bit on the small side and as such finding a true position for him is a problem. The kid has always wanted to go to USC, so much so that he already has a USC tattoo. However, the week before signing day, he takes a trip to Oregon where he receives the following offer from Nike: $1M per year for each year that he stays in college, a $1M endorsement contract for every year of his professional career, and a $150k per year job working at Nike in "Athlete Relations" after retiring as a player. In contrast, USC is offering just a $1M signing bonus and $250k per year while every other school in the conference is offering $500k-$1M with comparable per year commitments. This kid ends up committing to Oregon, has a nice career there, but really doesn't have much of a NFL future because he lacks size and a position to play.
Case #2 is a 5-star QB out of the Houston area that all schools in the State of Texas, Oklahoma, and the SEC are after. The battle ends up coming down to Texas, Oklahoma St., LSU, Alabama, and Florida. Alabama puts their offer out on the table of $2M signing bonus and $750k per year because while they know that they can't compete with the $$$ that the other schools will offer, they are banking on the fact that they have superior coaching to help them out. LSU offers a $2.5M signing bonus and $750k per year and while offering similar incentives as Alabama, offers a close to home option. LSU also happened to be this kid's favorite school growing up. Florida, with perhaps the deepest AD money pool in the country sees their alumni offer a $4M package at $1M per year to help solve what has been a very piss poor QB position for years. They are tired of losing to Alabama and LSU. Texas is in a position where they are taking a lot of internal heat for the possibility that this kid may leave the state. They decide to up the ante and offer $5M up front and $1.5M per year, offer the kids parents $150k per year jobs in Austin, buy a house for the family an hour outside of Austin located on a lake with a new boat, and the promise of a job within the Texas AD after his career ends as an "Alumni Liaison" at $200k per year and a membership in the most exclusive golf club in Austin. Boone Pickens is sick and tired of losing to those assholes in Oklahoma and Texas. He decides that this QB is the difference in his program. So he decides to offer $10M to the family up front, the kid $2M per year because living in Stillwater requires that, his parents jobs with his wind energy company at $200k per year and a small ownership stake in his company, and 100k options in the company for the QB that vest after 5 years. The kid ends up choosing Oklahoma St because regardless of what happens to him on the field, he's set up financially for life with this arrangement.
These kids haven't done shit before they get to college. But what you'll end up seeing is that college football just comes down to which school has alumni that have the most money, the best connections, and winning/losing is tied to how much you are willing to pay. -
Tequilla said:
Let me paint a couple of scenarios that WILL happen if you just opened everything up so that the "outside forces" of a school can pay players whatever they want in a "free market"
Case #1 is a 5-star WR/CB prospect out of the LA area that all schools up and down the West Coast want. The pro's for signing this kid is that he has elite speed (he's more fast than quick) and is a threat to score every time he touches the ball. The downside is that the kid is a bit on the small side and as such finding a true position for him is a problem. The kid has always wanted to go to USC, so much so that he already has a USC tattoo. However, the week before signing day, he takes a trip to Oregon where he receives the following offer from Nike: $1M per year for each year that he stays in college, a $1M endorsement contract for every year of his professional career, and a $150k per year job working at Nike in "Athlete Relations" after retiring as a player. In contrast, USC is offering just a $1M signing bonus and $250k per year while every other school in the conference is offering $500k-$1M with comparable per year commitments. This kid ends up committing to Oregon, has a nice career there, but really doesn't have much of a NFL future because he lacks size and a position to play.
Case #2 is a 5-star QB out of the Houston area that all schools in the State of Texas, Oklahoma, and the SEC are after. The battle ends up coming down to Texas, Oklahoma St., LSU, Alabama, and Florida. Alabama puts their offer out on the table of $2M signing bonus and $750k per year because while they know that they can't compete with the $$$ that the other schools will offer, they are banking on the fact that they have superior coaching to help them out. LSU offers a $2.5M signing bonus and $750k per year and while offering similar incentives as Alabama, offers a close to home option. LSU also happened to be this kid's favorite school growing up. Florida, with perhaps the deepest AD money pool in the country sees their alumni offer a $4M package at $1M per year to help solve what has been a very piss poor QB position for years. They are tired of losing to Alabama and LSU. Texas is in a position where they are taking a lot of internal heat for the possibility that this kid may leave the state. They decide to up the ante and offer $5M up front and $1.5M per year, offer the kids parents $150k per year jobs in Austin, buy a house for the family an hour outside of Austin located on a lake with a new boat, and the promise of a job within the Texas AD after his career ends as an "Alumni Liaison" at $200k per year and a membership in the most exclusive golf club in Austin. Boone Pickens is sick and tired of losing to those assholes in Oklahoma and Texas. He decides that this QB is the difference in his program. So he decides to offer $10M to the family up front, the kid $2M per year because living in Stillwater requires that, his parents jobs with his wind energy company at $200k per year and a small ownership stake in his company, and 100k options in the company for the QB that vest after 5 years. The kid ends up choosing Oklahoma St because regardless of what happens to him on the field, he's set up financially for life with this arrangement.
These kids haven't done shit before they get to college. But what you'll end up seeing is that college football just comes down to which school has alumni that have the most money, the best connections, and winning/losing is tied to how much you are willing to pay.
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Tequilla said:
This continues to be a big story given last week's decision surrounding Northwestern and also with the NCAA Tournament going on and all the money that the NCAA gets through TV rights deals and whatnot.
I think we all agree that increasing the stipend for all players to reflect the realities of playing sports (unable to really get an external job, cost of living, etc).
However, a few things that most people haven't talked about are as follows:
1) How much are the players currently getting paid through their education (and I realize that a lot of kids poo poo on that but getting a college education paid for without any debt associated with it is a significant advantage in life)
2) What is the comparable wages paid in the market for that level of experience (for example, taking basketball players, guys in the D-League make $30-$40k and often have college plus professional experience that "in theory" makes the caliber of play better ... likewise for baseball, kids in the minor leagues make $1k per month or less at the lowest levels)
3) How "valuable" is the training that these kids are receiving on the open market place? If you're going to go one way on saying that the kids deserve more money, you also have to be willing to go other ways to "charge" for the costs that they are incurring.
I know that this is too fucking serious of a poast on April Fool's Day, but there's been a lot about this topic that hasn't sit right with me for a while. Wonder what the thoughts of are others other than "fuck you," TL, DR, and disagree.
set it up so the players get half the gate ticket take. The other half can be split up by the conference. If nobody shows up for the game, nobody gets paid. Nobody can coast on a salary.Tequilla said:This continues to be a big story given last week's decision surrounding Northwestern and also with the NCAA Tournament going on and all the money that the NCAA gets through TV rights deals and whatnot.
I think we all agree that increasing the stipend for all players to reflect the realities of playing sports (unable to really get an external job, cost of living, etc).
However, a few things that most people haven't talked about are as follows:
1) How much are the players currently getting paid through their education (and I realize that a lot of kids poo poo on that but getting a college education paid for without any debt associated with it is a significant advantage in life)
2) What is the comparable wages paid in the market for that level of experience (for example, taking basketball players, guys in the D-League make $30-$40k and often have college plus professional experience that "in theory" makes the caliber of play better ... likewise for baseball, kids in the minor leagues make $1k per month or less at the lowest levels)
3) How "valuable" is the training that these kids are receiving on the open market place? If you're going to go one way on saying that the kids deserve more money, you also have to be willing to go other ways to "charge" for the costs that they are incurring.
I know that this is too fucking serious of a poast on April Fool's Day, but there's been a lot about this topic that hasn't sit right with me for a while. Wonder what the thoughts of are others other than "fuck you," TL, DR, and disagree. -
I refuse to participate in this thread.
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FTFY
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This thread needs to be nuked.TheGlove said:I refuse to participate in this thread.
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Race(RIP) has done it again!Ron_Fairly said:FTFY
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People died in a landslide....LOL!!!!!111!!!1111!!!1
christ people get over it -
It was a mudslide. Some of you need to learn the difference.PostGameOrangeSlices said:People died in a landslide....LOL!!!!!111!!!1111!!!1
christ people get over it -
There's a lot of threadjacking going on out here
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Is Tequilla's point that teams that pay the most money will get the best players? Should we cap coaches' salaries at tuition, room, board, books, and fees, because it is unfair that Alabama's alumni can afford to pay more than Utah State's alumni? Just tell Saban if he's good enough to turn pro, turn pro, otherwise stay in college and like it?
How much in bonuses did Harrison's shot earn his coaches and AD? How much more will he earn for them if UK wins its next two games?
Pay the players money commensurate with the money they bring in. Just like you do with the coaches.
There are a lot of people in the world that are jealous that athletes are rich. That is really sad. -
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I'm not jealous whatsoever in what athletes make. You could argue that many of them are underpaid as it is. LBJ makes $20M a year in the NBA. How many actors make $20M per movie? Are they better at their craft than LBJ?
There's a lot that I have a problem with when it comes to college players getting paid obscene amounts of money. I question what the limits are when it comes to what kids are making a year ... particularly when the kids are receiving an education as part of the gig. Take your average out-of-state UW student-athlete. Costs of out-of-state tuition + housing comes close to $50k. When you throw on top of that training table, exclusive use of facilities, free tutoring, free personal training, and professional development training, you could easily argue that each player is getting over $100k per year. That's nothing to sneeze at.
In comparison, an undrafted free agent in the NFL makes about $400k their first year.
Does it make sense to reimburse athletes at a reasonable hourly rate of compensation that would be consistent with what your average student would make for their services while required to be at practice, etc.? I think that that is fair. Something in the neighborhood of $15-$20 per hour (adjusted for inflation depending on the locale) would make sense to me at 20 hours per week. That comes out to about $15-20k per year per student-athlete. When you consider what else that they have going on, perks, etc., that's definitely enough for them to be able to live comfortably.
If you allow for players to be paid in a non-standard way at the college level, how do you determine what players get paid? Do seniors get more than freshman? Starters? All based on what alumni, boosters, and Athletic Departments are willing to pay? There's a lot of challenges in coming up with the right system.
If you start trickling down pay to the college level, how long before you start encountering the question at the high school level?
And, if you set the system up such that players are able share into the revenues of the TV packages, gate receipts, etc., then how do you get around Title IX? If football/basketball players are going to go down that road and argue that they deserve a greater slice of the pie, they'll quickly go away from talking about their collective rights and instead be entering into an argument about Title IX that I would be shocked if they found a way to win.
Pay the top of the profession the most money. That's fine. Everybody that has the mindset works hard to be able to achieve that after years of working at and mastering their craft (whatever craft that is). But most college athletes will never attain those high levels of performance and command those salaries. Instead, most kids are receiving a total package of well over $100k in terms of value of what they are being offered as compensation for playing a sport while in college. It's far from a trivial amount. And an amount far from what will gain significant sympathy when thought of in those terms given that the vast majority of the population doesn't make that kind of money ... yet these kids are walking into those kinds of situations at 18-22 years old. And for those that do not end up playing professionally, they'll instantly be taking a "pay cut" when it comes to a standard of living once they are out of the University setting and responsible for all that they do.
I guess my problem through all of this is that I don't buy the argument that the players are making when they say that they aren't being compensated for what they do. That's BS. What they really are saying is that they aren't getting the Benjamins immediately and instead have to put in extra work so that they can down the line collect. That's just a really hard line for me to support. -
You need more cock.He_Needs_More_Time said: -
We have recently won National Titles in men's crew, and women's cross country, volleyball, and softball. We have not won a Rose Bowl in 13 years. Yet the football coach makes more than the coaches in the other four sports combined, because the football program brings in the money. We have not made a final four in 60 years, yet I have no problem with Romar getting paid more than McLaughlin, because while McLaughlin may bring the wins, Romar brings more dollars.
Pay the players that bring in the money, money. Tenured professors get paid more than research assistants.
Title IX is about scholarships. It is not about athletic department employees.
Whether or not you think $100,000 is significant is irrelevant. Is it commensurate to the money the players are bringing in?
Pay Saban his scholarship package worth $100,000, since it is "nothing to sneeze at."
You're bothered that young athletes might get rich. We get that. That does not make it right. Who cares if they take a pay cut when they turn 22? Should actors/musicians/tennis players not be allowed to get rich as teen agers because they might take a pay cut when they are past their prime?
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My idea is still best.
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Ravenna,
What do you think scholarships are? Who do you think funds them?
Even if you assume that you cut every male sport out of the college spectrum except for football and basketball, you'll have to fund 100 scholarships for women sports. As I pointed out, for the UW, each scholarship is worth at least $50k as a starting point.
If college sports were so profitable, then you'd find more and more Athletic Departments churning out profits instead of losses. But the profitable schools are the exception and far from the rule.
I agree with you that coaches probably make too much ... and some of that money could be funneled back into the students.
Your example of paying Saban $100k per year is an absolute joke. Saban is arguably one of the best in the world at his profession. Now, you can argue what the top of his profession should get paid, but it's certainly more than $100k per year.
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Apparently you missed the point.
Coaches do not make too much. Coaches make money commensurate with the money they bring in. Calipari is compensated handsomely to bring in money for UK, and he working hard and he's doing a pretty good job.
Paying Saban $100,000 is indeed a joke (kudos!), just as saying Jameis Winston was only worth $50 or $100,000 this year is a joke. Who do you think was more important to Auburn's title, Newton, Fairly, or Chizik? (Hint, it was not the guy with the multi million dollar salary)
The money is there, whether you want to believe it or not.
Don't tell Justin Beiber "You may be generating tens of millions of dollars from your talent, but it would be unfair for you to take a paycut when you turn 22, so take $100,000 worth of schooling benefits and feel fairly compensated." And do not tell athletes that are the center of a multi billion dollar business that, either.
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The title IX thing is a little overblown in how people think it will stop unionization and pay-outs from happening. Here's a good article explaining how title ix is about education and the opportunity to play sports, whereas the pay-outs are all about whether the male football players are workers or not.
title ix should not confuse the issue of unions.
Second point is that of course paying the players will slow down the coaching salary escalator. I see it as a finite amount of money in the pot, with hundreds to thousands of new straws looking for a taste. Not that salaries will necessarily go down, but likely that they would plateau. If you're only allowed to pay half of your employees for producing x results (national titles, rose bowls, etc), like in CFB, then you'll give that group all of the money. Though the amounts of agreed compensation probably won't be very high, and then probably won't change the dynamics of coaching salaries all that much. -
TL, DR, but I'm sure I disagree. Only you would try to power through a complete threadjacking. Friday can't get here soon enough. My sources are telling me you're about to follow Little Jimmy(RIP) into the dark.Tequilla said:I'm not jealous whatsoever in what athletes make. You could argue that many of them are underpaid as it is. LBJ makes $20M a year in the NBA. How many actors make $20M per movie? Are they better at their craft than LBJ?
There's a lot that I have a problem with when it comes to college players getting paid obscene amounts of money. I question what the limits are when it comes to what kids are making a year ... particularly when the kids are receiving an education as part of the gig. Take your average out-of-state UW student-athlete. Costs of out-of-state tuition + housing comes close to $50k. When you throw on top of that training table, exclusive use of facilities, free tutoring, free personal training, and professional development training, you could easily argue that each player is getting over $100k per year. That's nothing to sneeze at.
In comparison, an undrafted free agent in the NFL makes about $400k their first year.
Does it make sense to reimburse athletes at a reasonable hourly rate of compensation that would be consistent with what your average student would make for their services while required to be at practice, etc.? I think that that is fair. Something in the neighborhood of $15-$20 per hour (adjusted for inflation depending on the locale) would make sense to me at 20 hours per week. That comes out to about $15-20k per year per student-athlete. When you consider what else that they have going on, perks, etc., that's definitely enough for them to be able to live comfortably.
If you allow for players to be paid in a non-standard way at the college level, how do you determine what players get paid? Do seniors get more than freshman? Starters? All based on what alumni, boosters, and Athletic Departments are willing to pay? There's a lot of challenges in coming up with the right system.
If you start trickling down pay to the college level, how long before you start encountering the question at the high school level?
And, if you set the system up such that players are able share into the revenues of the TV packages, gate receipts, etc., then how do you get around Title IX? If football/basketball players are going to go down that road and argue that they deserve a greater slice of the pie, they'll quickly go away from talking about their collective rights and instead be entering into an argument about Title IX that I would be shocked if they found a way to win.
Pay the top of the profession the most money. That's fine. Everybody that has the mindset works hard to be able to achieve that after years of working at and mastering their craft (whatever craft that is). But most college athletes will never attain those high levels of performance and command those salaries. Instead, most kids are receiving a total package of well over $100k in terms of value of what they are being offered as compensation for playing a sport while in college. It's far from a trivial amount. And an amount far from what will gain significant sympathy when thought of in those terms given that the vast majority of the population doesn't make that kind of money ... yet these kids are walking into those kinds of situations at 18-22 years old. And for those that do not end up playing professionally, they'll instantly be taking a "pay cut" when it comes to a standard of living once they are out of the University setting and responsible for all that they do.
I guess my problem through all of this is that I don't buy the argument that the players are making when they say that they aren't being compensated for what they do. That's BS. What they really are saying is that they aren't getting the Benjamins immediately and instead have to put in extra work so that they can down the line collect. That's just a really hard line for me to support.
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