Tommy John Surgery and #1 Pitchers

Tequilla

I find it interesting in the last week that you've seen 2 #1 starters be lost for the season with Tommy John surgeries needed.

Is it just me or does it seem like there is an increase in the number of UCL cases year after year? Is it because the knowledge of the symptoms and whatnot is so much better or is it because the manner in which pitchers pitch today is putting undue stress on the arm/elbow?

My personal opinion is that the focus today is on the strikeout and as a result you have guys trying to generate that result by overthrowing the fastball (more guys throw 95 plus today as part of a maximum effort delivery that is more arm and shoulder - particularly relievers), hard curves/sliders, and splitters. It used to be that pitching was less about strikeouts and more about changing speeds, generating movement, and trying to get hitters not to make solid contact.

Are pitchers paying for arm injuries because of smaller strike zones and therefore having a greater need to miss bats in smaller areas of the strike zone?

dnc

Is there any hard data to back up the idea that pitchers are getting hurt more frequently these days, or is it purely anecdotal? Your hypothesis is a decent one, but without any knowledge of whether things actually are worse, or (more likely) to what degree they are worse, it would be tough to suss out the actual causation.

Tequilla

It's a topic that just doesn't seem to be talked about.

I haven't tracked any data on this (and not sure I care enough to do so), but it definitely seems like it is worse.

Seems like a giant elephant in the room to me.

dhdawg

It certainly feels that way. But I think it's more the former of your argument than your latter.
Teams are simply more cautious and doctors nowadays have a much broader understanding of different injuries, and teams will focus especially on shoulder's and elbow's in terms of pitching.
While I understand the strikeout is emphasized teams are getting more and more cautious on how much they pitch someone in a certain game. Right now everyone is on a pitch count that rarely exceedes 100 pitches. So in that aspect it balances out.
Again it's more about teams being cautious and doctor's being to able to identify these types of injuries easier

dnc

dhdawg said:

It certainly feels that way. But I think it's more the former of your argument than your latter.
Teams are simply more cautious and doctors nowadays have a much broader understanding of different injuries, and teams will focus especially on shoulder's and elbow's in terms of pitching.
While I understand the strikeout is emphasized teams are getting more and more cautious on how much they pitch someone in a certain game. Right now everyone is on a pitch count that rarely exceedes 100 pitches. So in that aspect it balances out.
Again it's more about teams being cautious and doctor's being to able to identify these types of injuries easier

There's ever increasing success with the procedure as well, which probably gives teams increasing confidence to go away and get it over with rather than drag it out and hope it proves unnecessary.

dhdawg

Another excellent point. Teams are overall more willing to use the procedure knowing there's a more limited risk factor long term

RoadDawg55

This isn't entirely related to the topic, but the pitch count theories for young pitchers has gotten to be a bit much. The Nationals shutting down Strasburg was incredibly stupid and pissed me off. These pitchers are treated with kid gloves and it seems to hamper the development of many. If I am running a small/mid market team, I am having my good young pitchers throw until their arm falls off because I probably won't be able to re-sign them when they reach free agency anyways. I'm guessing someone has had the same thoughts, but it might not be feasible due to Boras and the other agents putting a stop to a team damaging a player's earning potential.

CuntWaffle

Played baseball most of my life. Tommy John is more of a result in having poor form for throwing some sort of curve/slider. Knew a couple guy in high school who had to get it done, all were known for those pitches, neither threw necessarily fast.

RoadDawg55

CuntWaffle said:

Played baseball most of my life. Tommy John is more of a result in having poor form for throwing some sort of curve/slider. Knew a couple guy in high school who had to get it done, all were known for those pitches, neither threw necessarily fast.

Yeah, but were you on the Pony League all star team?

CuntWaffle

RoadDawg55 said:

CuntWaffle said:

Played baseball most of my life. Tommy John is more of a result in having poor form for throwing some sort of curve/slider. Knew a couple guy in high school who had to get it done, all were known for those pitches, neither threw necessarily fast.

Yeah, but were you on the Pony League all star team?

Actually yes lol. Pony league competition was shit though, real teams played Mantle ball.

Tequilla

I agree with the idea of pitch counts being overrated and potentially even destructive. It conditions the body to max out at a certain point which as you approach and/or exceed ends up resulting in fatigue which leads to terrible mechanics.

Most guys today have ridiculously terrible mechanics. Most of the guys that my brother catches he tells me that they have huge arms but no clue where the ball is going. Why? Terrible mechanics.

RoadDawg55

Tequilla said:

I agree with the idea of pitch counts being overrated and potentially even destructive. It conditions the body to max out at a certain point which as you approach and/or exceed ends up resulting in fatigue which leads to terrible mechanics.

Most guys today have ridiculously terrible mechanics. Most of the guys that my brother catches he tells me that they have huge arms but no clue where the ball is going. Why? Terrible mechanics.

What level is your brother playing at this year?

Tequilla

Last I heard is that he'll be starting out at Low A Full Season in the Midwest League.

SteveInShelton

I just want the steroid era back, those were the golden days. sigh....

Doogles

CuntWaffle said:

RoadDawg55 said:

CuntWaffle said:

Played baseball most of my life. Tommy John is more of a result in having poor form for throwing some sort of curve/slider. Knew a couple guy in high school who had to get it done, all were known for those pitches, neither threw necessarily fast.

Yeah, but were you on the Pony League all star team?

Actually yes lol. Pony league competition was shit though, real teams played Mantle ball.

Why do you hate Pee Wee Reese?

allpurpleallgold

dnc said:

Is there any hard data to back up the idea that pitchers are getting hurt more frequently these days, or is it purely anecdotal? Your hypothesis is a decent one, but without any knowledge of whether things actually are worse, or (more likely) to what degree they are worse, it would be tough to suss out the actual causation.

Causation?