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The Fed Just Unleashed The Next Stock Market Boom

AtomicPissAtomicPiss Administrator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 64,435 Founders Club
edited May 2022 in Tug Tavern
In brief, Bill Clinton campaigned in 1992 on "putting people first". Wanted to limit CEO pay to no more than $1 million a year. It became law a year later.

In 1992, 35% of CEOs earned $1 million or more. In 2020, it is 95% of CEOs.

CEOs still got their compensation, but it came in the form of stock options instead of salary. So, the emphasis became less on long-term growth and stability, and more on increasing value of stock options at all costs.

"Putting people first" sounded good, but it had unintended consequences. For example, from 2018-2019, Apple revenue went down, but stock value went up $1 trillion. It was no longer based on a company's long-term performance.

Companies buying back their own stock is the only thing keeping the stock market growing right now.

The Fed just announced that they are going to allow banks to resume buy backs. In April, the Fed will pump more liquidity into the banks. The banks will be able to get some of the cash off their balance sheets. This will send the stock market skyward in the short term.

Mark Moss thinks more than $10 trillion will be printed in 2021. "You do not want to be stuck holding these fiat dollars". He says to buy tangible assets, gold, bitcoin and productive real estate.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n31oBzeEiU

Comments

  • FireCohenFireCohen Member Posts: 21,823
    edited April 2021
    “Companies buying back their own stock is the only thing keeping the stock market growing right now.”

    Yes ONLY thing
  • GreenRiverGatorzGreenRiverGatorz Member Posts: 10,165
    Small quibble - it's not that CEO pay was limited to $1m, it's that companies could not deduct more than $1m in executive compensation (loosely defined as the top five C-suite execs at a company) for tax purposes. To your point, the result was the same in that it created a very perverse incentive structure that placed outsized weight on equity compensation as opposed to salaries and bonuses.

    Tying executive compensation to short-term stock performance has been nothing short of disastrous. As a CEO, or any other exec, who cares if your strategy is short-sighted? Worst case scenario you pump up the price for a few years, make millions in SBC, and if everything comes crashing down because you stopped giving a shit about the long-term forecast, well there's always a nice severance package waiting at the exit.

    Believe it or not it was your boy Trump who actually came in and reformed section 162(m) through the TCJA, which now requires stock compensation to be factored into the $1m limitation. I don't think enough time has elapsed to really study how much this has influenced corporate behavior, but it was a long overdue change and will hopefully start bearing fruit soon. There have already been rumblings of public companies trying to steer away from quarterly earnings calls because this obsession with 3-month earnings is exactly the kind of short-sighted analyses that isn't helpful or indicative of a company's long-term prospects. Hopefully this is a positive sign of things to come.
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 44,742 Standard Supporter

    Small quibble - it's not that CEO pay was limited to $1m, it's that companies could not deduct more than $1m in executive compensation (loosely defined as the top five C-suite execs at a company) for tax purposes. To your point, the result was the same in that it created a very perverse incentive structure that placed outsized weight on equity compensation as opposed to salaries and bonuses.

    Tying executive compensation to short-term stock performance has been nothing short of disastrous. As a CEO, or any other exec, who cares if your strategy is short-sighted? Worst case scenario you pump up the price for a few years, make millions in SBC, and if everything comes crashing down because you stopped giving a shit about the long-term forecast, well there's always a nice severance package waiting at the exit.

    Believe it or not it was your boy Trump who actually came in and reformed section 162(m) through the TCJA, which now requires stock compensation to be factored into the $1m limitation. I don't think enough time has elapsed to really study how much this has influenced corporate behavior, but it was a long overdue change and will hopefully start bearing fruit soon. There have already been rumblings of public companies trying to steer away from quarterly earnings calls because this obsession with 3-month earnings is exactly the kind of short-sighted analyses that isn't helpful or indicative of a company's long-term prospects. Hopefully this is a positive sign of things to come.

    We'll agree here.

    So many stupid decisions tied to short-term stock price. Causes irrational behavior and decisions. The faggotry of managing by stock price cannot be overstated. Dealing with it now and I'm about ready to call in Tony Sopranos boys to eradicate the problem.



  • creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 23,633
    edited April 2021

    Small quibble - it's not that CEO pay was limited to $1m, it's that companies could not deduct more than $1m in executive compensation (loosely defined as the top five C-suite execs at a company) for tax purposes. To your point, the result was the same in that it created a very perverse incentive structure that placed outsized weight on equity compensation as opposed to salaries and bonuses.

    Tying executive compensation to short-term stock performance has been nothing short of disastrous. As a CEO, or any other exec, who cares if your strategy is short-sighted? Worst case scenario you pump up the price for a few years, make millions in SBC, and if everything comes crashing down because you stopped giving a shit about the long-term forecast, well there's always a nice severance package waiting at the exit.

    Believe it or not it was your boy Trump who actually came in and reformed section 162(m) through the TCJA, which now requires stock compensation to be factored into the $1m limitation. I don't think enough time has elapsed to really study how much this has influenced corporate behavior, but it was a long overdue change and will hopefully start bearing fruit soon. There have already been rumblings of public companies trying to steer away from quarterly earnings calls because this obsession with 3-month earnings is exactly the kind of short-sighted analyses that isn't helpful or indicative of a company's long-term prospects. Hopefully this is a positive sign of things to come.

    The 162(m) exemption to the deduction limit was only for incentive-based compensation (which is what GreenRiver is referring to). Other forms of compensation over $1 million couldn't be. Btw, 162(m) was repealed a few years ago and now there's no exemption to the limit.

    Stock buy backs are not the only thing keeping the market afloat. I can't get there. It's not like buy-backs are reflected on a 1 to 1 basis in the share price ... and sometimes not at all. Yes, it may enter into TRS for compensation performance goals (usually not ... people tend to frown on that), but it's lolz that it's the reasons the market is doing what it's doing. At my companies over the years, buy-backs haven't done shit to the share price. I think it's a waste of cash myself. Pay me the cash in a fucking dividend and that's money in the bank. Not make believe, theoretical value transfer.

    There is a lot to unpack here. As you might be able to tell, you're getting into my wheelhouse as it relates to executive comp. Suffice it to say, the proxy advisory firms (ISS & Glass Lewis) will recommend to institutional shareholder clients that they vote against the board or the chair of the comp. committee and against the company's "Say on Pay" vote if executive comp. isn't balanced between long and short-term incentive compensation. CEO salaries are mostly a detail. The incentive comp. is where the real numbers are.

    Happy to discuss further.
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 44,742 Standard Supporter
    edited April 2021

    Small quibble - it's not that CEO pay was limited to $1m, it's that companies could not deduct more than $1m in executive compensation (loosely defined as the top five C-suite execs at a company) for tax purposes. To your point, the result was the same in that it created a very perverse incentive structure that placed outsized weight on equity compensation as opposed to salaries and bonuses.

    Tying executive compensation to short-term stock performance has been nothing short of disastrous. As a CEO, or any other exec, who cares if your strategy is short-sighted? Worst case scenario you pump up the price for a few years, make millions in SBC, and if everything comes crashing down because you stopped giving a shit about the long-term forecast, well there's always a nice severance package waiting at the exit.

    Believe it or not it was your boy Trump who actually came in and reformed section 162(m) through the TCJA, which now requires stock compensation to be factored into the $1m limitation. I don't think enough time has elapsed to really study how much this has influenced corporate behavior, but it was a long overdue change and will hopefully start bearing fruit soon. There have already been rumblings of public companies trying to steer away from quarterly earnings calls because this obsession with 3-month earnings is exactly the kind of short-sighted analyses that isn't helpful or indicative of a company's long-term prospects. Hopefully this is a positive sign of things to come.

    The 162(m) exemption to the deduction limit was only for incentive-based compensation (which is what GreenRiver is referring to). Other forms of compensation over $1 million couldn't be. Btw, 162(m) was repealed a few years ago and now there's no exemption to the limit.

    Stock buy backs are not the only thing keeping the market afloat. I can't get there. It's not like buy-backs are reflected on a 1 to 1 basis in the share price ... and sometimes not at all. Yes, it may enter into TRS for compensation performance goals (usually not ... people tend to frown on that), but it's lolz that it's the reasons the market is doing what it's doing. At my companies over the years, buy-backs haven't done shit to the share price. I think it's a waste of cash myself. Pay me the cash in a fucking dividend and that's money in the bank. Not make believe, theoretical value transfer.

    There is a lot to unpack here. As you might be able to tell, you're getting into my wheelhouse as it relates to executive comp. Suffice it to say, the proxy advisory firms (ISS & Glass Lewis) will recommend to institutional shareholder clients that they vote against the board or the chair of the comp. committee and against the company's "Say on Pay" vote if executive comp. isn't balanced between long and short-term incentive compensation. CEO salaries are mostly a detail. The incentive comp. is where the real numbers are.

    Happy to discuss further.
    Proxy voters typically are uninformed fucks who vote in favor of whatever the board/management is proposing. When's the last significant coupe resulting in a board takeover or rejecting the shit the company tosses out?

    I've been following a shareholder action and it's provided some good drama. New CFO quit after a few days claiming accounting improprieties and improper controls. Creditor is the one who put the CFO in place. Claims of self-dealing by the CEO. Gonna be some good popcorn material. In this case ISS is siding with the activists/whisteblowers. Good shit.





  • creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 23,633
    edited April 2021

    Small quibble - it's not that CEO pay was limited to $1m, it's that companies could not deduct more than $1m in executive compensation (loosely defined as the top five C-suite execs at a company) for tax purposes. To your point, the result was the same in that it created a very perverse incentive structure that placed outsized weight on equity compensation as opposed to salaries and bonuses.

    Tying executive compensation to short-term stock performance has been nothing short of disastrous. As a CEO, or any other exec, who cares if your strategy is short-sighted? Worst case scenario you pump up the price for a few years, make millions in SBC, and if everything comes crashing down because you stopped giving a shit about the long-term forecast, well there's always a nice severance package waiting at the exit.

    Believe it or not it was your boy Trump who actually came in and reformed section 162(m) through the TCJA, which now requires stock compensation to be factored into the $1m limitation. I don't think enough time has elapsed to really study how much this has influenced corporate behavior, but it was a long overdue change and will hopefully start bearing fruit soon. There have already been rumblings of public companies trying to steer away from quarterly earnings calls because this obsession with 3-month earnings is exactly the kind of short-sighted analyses that isn't helpful or indicative of a company's long-term prospects. Hopefully this is a positive sign of things to come.

    The 162(m) exemption to the deduction limit was only for incentive-based compensation (which is what GreenRiver is referring to). Other forms of compensation over $1 million couldn't be. Btw, 162(m) was repealed a few years ago and now there's no exemption to the limit.

    Stock buy backs are not the only thing keeping the market afloat. I can't get there. It's not like buy-backs are reflected on a 1 to 1 basis in the share price ... and sometimes not at all. Yes, it may enter into TRS for compensation performance goals (usually not ... people tend to frown on that), but it's lolz that it's the reasons the market is doing what it's doing. At my companies over the years, buy-backs haven't done shit to the share price. I think it's a waste of cash myself. Pay me the cash in a fucking dividend and that's money in the bank. Not make believe, theoretical value transfer.

    There is a lot to unpack here. As you might be able to tell, you're getting into my wheelhouse as it relates to executive comp. Suffice it to say, the proxy advisory firms (ISS & Glass Lewis) will recommend to institutional shareholder clients that they vote against the board or the chair of the comp. committee and against the company's "Say on Pay" vote if executive comp. isn't balanced between long and short-term incentive compensation. CEO salaries are mostly a detail. The incentive comp. is where the real numbers are.

    Happy to discuss further.
    Proxy voters typically are uninformed fucks who vote in favor of whatever the board/management is proposing. When's the last significant coupe resulting in a board takeover or rejecting the shit the company tosses out?

    I've been following a shareholder action and it's provided some good drama. New CFO quit after a few days claiming accounting improprieties and improper controls. Creditor is the one who put the CFO in place. Claims of self-dealing by the CEO. Gonna be some good popcorn material. In this case ISS is siding with the activists/whisteblowers. Good shit.





    As a guy who lives this, I'd say the tables have turned 180 degrees in favor of shareholder activism. Shareholders get companies to do shit all the tim. Do you think anybody like me would ever advise my client to adopt a Proxy Access bylaw provision? Fuck no. That's all shareholder pressure broseff.

    And that advisory vote on executive comp. was the most brilliant thing to come out of Dodd-Frank. It's an advisory vote with teeth. If you ignore a shitty SOP vote, the proxy advisors will recommend against the Comp. Chair, then the board chair, then board if you don't do something about the issue.

    And when ISS recommends "against" anything, you are going to have a vote problem. Most institutional money will vote with ISS recommendations unless there are extenuating circumstances.

    And when you have >5% shareholders, you answer the phone when they call, and you return letters when they write.

    It's not like the old days. I've spent 1/2 my career laughing at ISS, and half living in fear of them during proxy season.
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 44,742 Standard Supporter

    Small quibble - it's not that CEO pay was limited to $1m, it's that companies could not deduct more than $1m in executive compensation (loosely defined as the top five C-suite execs at a company) for tax purposes. To your point, the result was the same in that it created a very perverse incentive structure that placed outsized weight on equity compensation as opposed to salaries and bonuses.

    Tying executive compensation to short-term stock performance has been nothing short of disastrous. As a CEO, or any other exec, who cares if your strategy is short-sighted? Worst case scenario you pump up the price for a few years, make millions in SBC, and if everything comes crashing down because you stopped giving a shit about the long-term forecast, well there's always a nice severance package waiting at the exit.

    Believe it or not it was your boy Trump who actually came in and reformed section 162(m) through the TCJA, which now requires stock compensation to be factored into the $1m limitation. I don't think enough time has elapsed to really study how much this has influenced corporate behavior, but it was a long overdue change and will hopefully start bearing fruit soon. There have already been rumblings of public companies trying to steer away from quarterly earnings calls because this obsession with 3-month earnings is exactly the kind of short-sighted analyses that isn't helpful or indicative of a company's long-term prospects. Hopefully this is a positive sign of things to come.

    The 162(m) exemption to the deduction limit was only for incentive-based compensation (which is what GreenRiver is referring to). Other forms of compensation over $1 million couldn't be. Btw, 162(m) was repealed a few years ago and now there's no exemption to the limit.

    Stock buy backs are not the only thing keeping the market afloat. I can't get there. It's not like buy-backs are reflected on a 1 to 1 basis in the share price ... and sometimes not at all. Yes, it may enter into TRS for compensation performance goals (usually not ... people tend to frown on that), but it's lolz that it's the reasons the market is doing what it's doing. At my companies over the years, buy-backs haven't done shit to the share price. I think it's a waste of cash myself. Pay me the cash in a fucking dividend and that's money in the bank. Not make believe, theoretical value transfer.

    There is a lot to unpack here. As you might be able to tell, you're getting into my wheelhouse as it relates to executive comp. Suffice it to say, the proxy advisory firms (ISS & Glass Lewis) will recommend to institutional shareholder clients that they vote against the board or the chair of the comp. committee and against the company's "Say on Pay" vote if executive comp. isn't balanced between long and short-term incentive compensation. CEO salaries are mostly a detail. The incentive comp. is where the real numbers are.

    Happy to discuss further.
    Proxy voters typically are uninformed fucks who vote in favor of whatever the board/management is proposing. When's the last significant coupe resulting in a board takeover or rejecting the shit the company tosses out?

    I've been following a shareholder action and it's provided some good drama. New CFO quit after a few days claiming accounting improprieties and improper controls. Creditor is the one who put the CFO in place. Claims of self-dealing by the CEO. Gonna be some good popcorn material. In this case ISS is siding with the activists/whisteblowers. Good shit.





    As a guy who lives this, I'd say the tables have turned 180 degrees in favor of shareholder activism. Shareholders get companies to do shit all the tim. Do you think anybody like me would ever advise my client to adopt a Proxy Access bylaw provision? Fuck no. That's all shareholder pressure broseff.

    And that advisory vote on executive comp. was the most brilliant thing to come out of Dodd-Frank. It's an advisory vote with teeth. If you ignore a shitty SOP vote, the proxy advisors will recommend against the Comp. Chair, then the board chair, then board if you don't do something about the issue.

    And when ISS recommends "against" anything, you are going to have a vote problem. Most institutional money will vote with ISS recommendations unless there are extenuating circumstances.

    And when you have >5% shareholders, you answer the phone when they call, and you return letters when they write.

    It's not like the old days. I've spent 1/2 my career laughing at ISS, and half living in fear of them during proxy season.

    In this case, I'm Team Kick their Ass Sea Bass in favor of ISS because management is a bunch of do-nothing fuckwads. Couldn't happen to nicer chaps.


  • USMChawkUSMChawk Member Posts: 1,800
    My daughter and I were discussing CEO compensation and wondered why they don’t/can’t tie it to the dividend. Make it some multiplier, say a million, and if you pay $4.00/share in dividends per year, then you get $4M as your salary. Of course there would have to be oversight to ensure the dividend wasn’t artificially high, but it adds insensitive to pay the shareholders more.
  • HoustonHuskyHoustonHusky Member Posts: 5,993
    Short on time, but if I remember correctly wasn’t part of the reform making companies have to detail their CEO pay when historical it had been pretty hidden? The idea was it would shame them into getting paid less...reality is they used it to argue their salaries up and up. It’s something like 75% of the population think they are above average...I’d love to see that study on CEOs ranking themselves against their “peers”.

    Imagine...govt completely misreading economics and incentives...
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 44,742 Standard Supporter

    Short on time, but if I remember correctly wasn’t part of the reform making companies have to detail their CEO pay when historical it had been pretty hidden? The idea was it would shame them into getting paid less...reality is they used it to argue their salaries up and up. It’s something like 75% of the population think they are above average...I’d love to see that study on CEOs ranking themselves against their “peers”.

    Imagine...govt completely misreading economics and incentives...

    CEO's generally have ginormous egos that lead them to believe they are grossly underpaid for the 'value' they bring to a company.

  • creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 23,633
    edited April 2021
    USMChawk said:

    My daughter and I were discussing CEO compensation and wondered why they don’t/can’t tie it to the dividend. Make it some multiplier, say a million, and if you pay $4.00/share in dividends per year, then you get $4M as your salary. Of course there would have to be oversight to ensure the dividend wasn’t artificially high, but it adds insensitive to pay the shareholders more.

    @USMChawk , good point. Makes sense for dividend payers, but as you know many companies don't trade on yield. And those that do, I would argue that CEO comp., and in fact their good standing with shareholders, is tied to sustainable and growing dividends. For many incentive plans, which form a part of most executive comp. packages, the dividend is indirectly reflected in TSR as part of the calculation of shareholder return (stock price appreciation plus cash returns = TSR by most calculations).

    @HoustonHusky , arguably those rules have been in place since time immemorial. We're talking about Regulation S-K Item 402 and Schedule 14A (proxy rules). In the old days, yes, the lawyers were paid to obfuscate as much as possible, but there was only so much you could do. In 2006 there was an aircraft carrier amendment to 402 that required, among other things, two key changes: (1) stock-based compensation had to be fair valued in accordance with GAAP accounting standards and disclosed on that basis in the comp. tables and (2) the creation of the requirement to include a Compensation Discussion and Analysis (CD&A). The CD&A requires pretty clear disclosure of how the comp. programs work, and a clear explanation for why the comp. committee made the salary and other compensation decisions it made for the prior year. So for this proxy season's SOP vote, the voters will be voting on whether to approve the 2020 comp. decisions "as set forth in the compensation tables and discussed in the CD&A" in the proxy statement.

    I would say it's about as clear as it's going to get. Sure, for the average retail investor, some of the disclosure isn't obvious because most people don't spend their time thinking about how to compensate and incentivize senior executives.

    I'll say this: absent a situation where they're gaming the system, which is harder to do than many think, I like the free market approach here as I usually do: let the market decide what these guys are worth. Plus, you have the ability to vote out the board if they continue to employ a dead beat who's being paid a ton of money to do a bad job. Running a company is a big deal and most people aren't equipped to do it, nor are most ready to make the personal sacrifices it takes to do it. To be a good CEO, you almost need to be obsessive about the company.
  • FireCohenFireCohen Member Posts: 21,823

    Short on time, but if I remember correctly wasn’t part of the reform making companies have to detail their CEO pay when historical it had been pretty hidden? The idea was it would shame them into getting paid less...reality is they used it to argue their salaries up and up. It’s something like 75% of the population think they are above average...I’d love to see that study on CEOs ranking themselves against their “peers”.

    Imagine...govt completely misreading economics and incentives...

    CEO's generally have ginormous egos that lead them to believe they are grossly underpaid for the 'value' they bring to a company.

    Having an ego is a fucking requirement to be a CEO, dude has to make some tuff decisions
  • HoustonHuskyHoustonHusky Member Posts: 5,993
    I was more referring to the early 1990s reform that I think made companies spell out their compensation clearly (along with other things). I may be wrong though...not my area of expertise. I’d have to go look it up.
  • creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 23,633

    I was more referring to the early 1990s reform that I think made companies spell out their compensation clearly (along with other things). I may be wrong though...not my area of expertise. I’d have to go look it up.

    It is safe to say that, over time, the federal securities laws have evolved to provided clearer and clearer disclosure of compensation. There are also several items under Form 8-K (current reports between the 10-K and 10-Q reports, due normally within four biz days after the triggering event) that compel you to disclose new comp. arrangements and material amendments to existing ones.
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 44,742 Standard Supporter
    FireCohen said:

    Short on time, but if I remember correctly wasn’t part of the reform making companies have to detail their CEO pay when historical it had been pretty hidden? The idea was it would shame them into getting paid less...reality is they used it to argue their salaries up and up. It’s something like 75% of the population think they are above average...I’d love to see that study on CEOs ranking themselves against their “peers”.

    Imagine...govt completely misreading economics and incentives...

    CEO's generally have ginormous egos that lead them to believe they are grossly underpaid for the 'value' they bring to a company.

    Having an ego is a fucking requirement to be a CEO, dude has to make some tuff decisions
    Unfortunately, the ginormous ego sometimes confuses a TUFF decision with a CORRECT decision.

  • godawgstgodawgst Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 2,523 Founders Club
    Before the mid 90's internet/technology boom buy-backs were very accreditive to the share price, but was ruined when companies like Intel, Cisco, others would announce how many shares they would buy back in the quarter, but buried on page 25 of the quarterlies was they issued just as many to purchase another company and/or stock options for upper management.

    Not a metric I use when deciding to buy a stock.

  • creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 23,633
    godawgst said:

    Before the mid 90's internet/technology boom buy-backs were very accreditive to the share price, but was ruined when companies like Intel, Cisco, others would announce how many shares they would buy back in the quarter, but buried on page 25 of the quarterlies was they issued just as many to purchase another company and/or stock options for upper management.

    Not a metric I use when deciding to buy a stock.

    When you really start in earnest to try and intellectually capture all the things that go into a stock's price, it's a miracle that buy-backs accomplish anything at all. What, the company announces they bought back X% in QX, now "my" selling prices has increased by some measure? Even if I could do the math, the market will tell me to fuck off if "my" price doesn't match current market price.

    It's just too far removed. I mean, MAYBE if in a concentrated period of time a huge amount of the float were repurchased so people could get their heads around it ("hey, they bought back 40% of the company last quarter; our shares are worth so much more now!") ... but that's never how it goes.

    Again, I say, if you have that much cash burning a hole in your pocket, declare a huge ass dividend and send me the $$. If I want to use that to buy stock, then I will.

    Not a fan.
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