Resident bow question?

YellowSnow

So why are there massive resident bows in the rivers of Alaska which rely upon dead salmon for protein, but the bows in the PNW had to migrate or starve? Wouldn't our? rivers have dead salmon to eat as well?

@MisterEm @chuck @dannarc @dflea ??

chuck

YellowSnow said:

So why are there massive resident bows in the rivers of Alaska which rely upon dead salmon for protein, but the bows in the PNW had to migrate or starve? Wouldn't our? rivers have dead salmon to eat as well?

@MisterEm @chuck @dannarc @dflea ??

I've typed and deleted two long replies to your question and never came close to finishing either. Way too much to try to type out.

It's a function of so many things...geology of the watersheds and real broad scale factors, but also simply the timing, number and density of the salmon runs. We dont get the succession of enormous spawning runs, in a concentrated time frame while feeding and growing conditions for trout are optimal, like coastal Alaskan streams.

Pinks and sockeye are the most numerous there but pinks barely exist in the lower 48.
Almost all of the sockeye go to a couple of isolated places. Spawning in the Columbia system happens in pitiful, warm little streams that can't support large, resident trout in any number (tule chinook) or too late in the year for trout to take direct advantage of all of that food (upper river and snake springers, bright fall chinook, coho and chum). Spawning steelhead are a non factor since they dont mass spawn and dont die on site.

The abundance of early fall chinook does contribute to some nice resident populations in the PNW, just not on the Alaska scale. Dflea can tell you that big trout exist in Puget sound streams like the Skagit as well as on the peninsula where there are some pinks as well. The Deschutes just up the road from me here has decent size trout in good densities and the chinook spawners certainly contribute to that.

TLDR...there are a few thoughts on it...

dflea

No idea. There aren't many resident rainbows in these parts these days even in the rivers with big salmon runs. Our big salmon runs are pretty meager compared to theirs, too. Seems like they used to be more abundant. I'd be interested in an answer from someone who knows their ass from a hole in the ground.

1to392831weretaken

I don't know shit except that things have changed. When I was a kid, we used to be able to walk out on the docks at the Oak Harbor marina, drop a line with a treble hook on it into the water, yank up an anchovy, toss it on a hook, throw it back out, and reel in a sliver. Then all of a sudden you couldn't. Anchovy never came back, silvers never followed them in because they weren't there.

We used to be able to get up in the morning, lift up rocks in the tide to catch those green sea worms, fill a bucket with them, drive said bucket to the main pier at Coupeville, toss those green worms under the pier near the pylons, and catch silver perch by the dozen. (Silver perch are super cool because they're the only fish that gives live birth. Every once in a while you'd catch a really pregnant one, and you can squeeze its belly and shoot a hundred little fish into the water that would swim off, alive. Fun to fight and good eatin' too.) I tried going back a decade or so ago, and there wasn't shit there.

Used to limit out for pinks in the Skagit on every trip growing up. Got skunked the last two times I tried.

I find anymore that if I want to catch a trout, I have to pack a rod and some lures up a steep trail and find something high. High enough that it doesn't get a lot of traffic. I've been digging Pine and Cedar near Larrabee lately. Two Little Lakes near Mad River even more, but it's a 7 mile ride in.

Long story short, I'm not that old, but fishing now isn't what fishing used to be.

/uninformative threadjack

PurpleThrobber

The typhus got them.

minion_doog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_78X9nn3hWE

Baseman

Pup?

DerekJohnson

I'm waiting for @puppylove_sugarsteel to weigh in before judging anything

minion_doog

I believe I may have found where pumpy keeps his notes on the matter

Swaye

chuck said:

YellowSnow said:

So why are there massive resident bows in the rivers of Alaska which rely upon dead salmon for protein, but the bows in the PNW had to migrate or starve? Wouldn't our? rivers have dead salmon to eat as well?

@MisterEm @chuck @dannarc @dflea ??

I've typed and deleted two long replies to your question and never came close to finishing either. Way too much to try to type out.

It's a function of so many things...geology of the watersheds and real broad scale factors, but also simply the timing, number and density of the salmon runs. We dont get the succession of enormous spawning runs, in a concentrated time frame while feeding and growing conditions for trout are optimal, like coastal Alaskan streams.

Pinks and sockeye are the most numerous there but pinks barely exist in the lower 48.
Almost all of the sockeye go to a couple of isolated places. Spawning in the Columbia system happens in pitiful, warm little streams that can't support large, resident trout in any number (tule chinook) or too late in the year for trout to take direct advantage of all of that food (upper river and snake springers, bright fall chinook, coho and chum). Spawning steelhead are a non factor since they dont mass spawn and dont die on site.

The abundance of early fall chinook does contribute to some nice resident populations in the PNW, just not on the Alaska scale. Dflea can tell you that big trout exist in Puget sound streams like the Skagit as well as on the peninsula where there are some pinks as well. The Deschutes just up the road from me here has decent size trout in good densities and the chinook spawners certainly contribute to that.

TLDR...there are a few thoughts on it...

I had an erection for the duration of this poast.

Swaye

1to392831weretaken said:

I don't know shit except that things have changed. When I was a kid, we used to be able to walk out on the docks at the Oak Harbor marina, drop a line with a treble hook on it into the water, yank up an anchovy, toss it on a hook, throw it back out, and reel in a sliver. Then all of a sudden you couldn't. Anchovy never came back, silvers never followed them in because they weren't there.

We used to be able to get up in the morning, lift up rocks in the tide to catch those green sea worms, fill a bucket with them, drive said bucket to the main pier at Coupeville, toss those green worms under the pier near the pylons, and catch silver perch by the dozen. (Silver perch are super cool because they're the only fish that gives live birth. Every once in a while you'd catch a really pregnant one, and you can squeeze its belly and shoot a hundred little fish into the water that would swim off, alive. Fun to fight and good eatin' too.) I tried going back a decade or so ago, and there wasn't shit there.

Used to limit out for pinks in the Skagit on every trip growing up. Got skunked the last two times I tried.

I find anymore that if I want to catch a trout, I have to pack a rod and some lures up a steep trail and find something high. High enough that it doesn't get a lot of traffic. I've been digging Pine and Cedar near Larrabee lately. Two Little Lakes near Mad River even more, but it's a 7 mile ride in.

Long story short, I'm not that old, but fishing now isn't what fishing used to be.

/uninformative threadjack

My boner is gone.

dflea

This place used to be stupid with fish.

And crab. And geoduck. And bottom fish.

Now it's just mostly stupid.

YellowSnow

dflea said:

This place used to be stupid with fish.

And crab. And geoduck. And bottom fish.

Now it's just mostly stupid.

Damn @Swaye ’s. Casinos or fish. You can’t have both.

YellowSnow

chuck said:

YellowSnow said:

So why are there massive resident bows in the rivers of Alaska which rely upon dead salmon for protein, but the bows in the PNW had to migrate or starve? Wouldn't our? rivers have dead salmon to eat as well?

@MisterEm @chuck @dannarc @dflea ??

I've typed and deleted two long replies to your question and never came close to finishing either. Way too much to try to type out.

It's a function of so many things...geology of the watersheds and real broad scale factors, but also simply the timing, number and density of the salmon runs. We dont get the succession of enormous spawning runs, in a concentrated time frame while feeding and growing conditions for trout are optimal, like coastal Alaskan streams.

Pinks and sockeye are the most numerous there but pinks barely exist in the lower 48.
Almost all of the sockeye go to a couple of isolated places. Spawning in the Columbia system happens in pitiful, warm little streams that can't support large, resident trout in any number (tule chinook) or too late in the year for trout to take direct advantage of all of that food (upper river and snake springers, bright fall chinook, coho and chum). Spawning steelhead are a non factor since they dont mass spawn and dont die on site.

The abundance of early fall chinook does contribute to some nice resident populations in the PNW, just not on the Alaska scale. Dflea can tell you that big trout exist in Puget sound streams like the Skagit as well as on the peninsula where there are some pinks as well. The Deschutes just up the road from me here has decent size trout in good densities and the chinook spawners certainly contribute to that.

TLDR...there are a few thoughts on it...

There's not a single river on the west side of the Cascades in WA with large resident trout. Event the streams on the East Slope for resident trout pales in comparison to MT, WY or ID. The Yakima could be better but it's basically run an one big irrigation ditch vs blue ribbion trout fishing. I caught an 18" bow in downtown Cle Elum once that must have been the world record for that stretch of the Yakima.

chuck

YellowSnow said:

chuck said:

YellowSnow said:

So why are there massive resident bows in the rivers of Alaska which rely upon dead salmon for protein, but the bows in the PNW had to migrate or starve? Wouldn't our? rivers have dead salmon to eat as well?

@MisterEm @chuck @dannarc @dflea ??

I've typed and deleted two long replies to your question and never came close to finishing either. Way too much to try to type out.

It's a function of so many things...geology of the watersheds and real broad scale factors, but also simply the timing, number and density of the salmon runs. We dont get the succession of enormous spawning runs, in a concentrated time frame while feeding and growing conditions for trout are optimal, like coastal Alaskan streams.

Pinks and sockeye are the most numerous there but pinks barely exist in the lower 48.
Almost all of the sockeye go to a couple of isolated places. Spawning in the Columbia system happens in pitiful, warm little streams that can't support large, resident trout in any number (tule chinook) or too late in the year for trout to take direct advantage of all of that food (upper river and snake springers, bright fall chinook, coho and chum). Spawning steelhead are a non factor since they dont mass spawn and dont die on site.

The abundance of early fall chinook does contribute to some nice resident populations in the PNW, just not on the Alaska scale. Dflea can tell you that big trout exist in Puget sound streams like the Skagit as well as on the peninsula where there are some pinks as well. The Deschutes just up the road from me here has decent size trout in good densities and the chinook spawners certainly contribute to that.

TLDR...there are a few thoughts on it...

There's not a single river on the west side of the Cascades in WA with large resident trout. Event the streams on the East Slope for resident trout pales in comparison to MT, WY or ID. The Yakima could be better but it's basically run an one big irrigation ditch vs blue ribbion trout fishing. I caught an 18" bow in downtown Cle Elum once that must have been the world record for that stretch of the Yakima.

Oh there are big residents in west side rivers We see them all the time, though theres a big drop off at about 16 inches and a gap between the residents and smallest steelhead.

We once shocked a 16.5 inch brook trout in one of the upper spawning tribs in the watershed I work in. This was in mid summer, with maybe 2-3cfs, out of a 3' deep pool with a small root wad in it.

The Lewis above Swift has large rainbow and cutthroat...1-2 big fish per pool. There are also very large, over 10lb, adfluvial bull trout in the Lewis. They dont need to go to the ocean to get big because the reservoir is full of food fish.

The ri er I work on has a 13-16 inch rainbow in just about every large pool in the lower 10 miles. The upper river has them too, just a bit less numerous.

I know these examples are nothing like the Alaska example. There you have huge numbers of spawning salmon in good water quality in the lower reaches of rivers. It's a trout factory. It's nothing like the east side, the upper snake, Yellowstone, or upper Missouri system where bug densities can support high #s of big trout. I'm just saying they are there.

Anadromy is just a more successful strategy on the west side. Theres a biological imperative to get big so you can make more babies. The ones that dont do it get outnumbered quickly. In "my" river ther dont seem to be any female resident bows in the reaches accessible to steelhead. I've had my hands on thousands of ripe male trout over the years ranging from 4" to 18". Others working in the watershed have as well. Nobody that I know of has ever encountered a female.

I'm supposed to be working right now not rambling about this. Damn it.

YellowSnow

chuck said:

YellowSnow said:

chuck said:

YellowSnow said:

So why are there massive resident bows in the rivers of Alaska which rely upon dead salmon for protein, but the bows in the PNW had to migrate or starve? Wouldn't our? rivers have dead salmon to eat as well?

@MisterEm @chuck @dannarc @dflea ??

I've typed and deleted two long replies to your question and never came close to finishing either. Way too much to try to type out.

It's a function of so many things...geology of the watersheds and real broad scale factors, but also simply the timing, number and density of the salmon runs. We dont get the succession of enormous spawning runs, in a concentrated time frame while feeding and growing conditions for trout are optimal, like coastal Alaskan streams.

Pinks and sockeye are the most numerous there but pinks barely exist in the lower 48.
Almost all of the sockeye go to a couple of isolated places. Spawning in the Columbia system happens in pitiful, warm little streams that can't support large, resident trout in any number (tule chinook) or too late in the year for trout to take direct advantage of all of that food (upper river and snake springers, bright fall chinook, coho and chum). Spawning steelhead are a non factor since they dont mass spawn and dont die on site.

The abundance of early fall chinook does contribute to some nice resident populations in the PNW, just not on the Alaska scale. Dflea can tell you that big trout exist in Puget sound streams like the Skagit as well as on the peninsula where there are some pinks as well. The Deschutes just up the road from me here has decent size trout in good densities and the chinook spawners certainly contribute to that.

TLDR...there are a few thoughts on it...

There's not a single river on the west side of the Cascades in WA with large resident trout. Event the streams on the East Slope for resident trout pales in comparison to MT, WY or ID. The Yakima could be better but it's basically run an one big irrigation ditch vs blue ribbion trout fishing. I caught an 18" bow in downtown Cle Elum once that must have been the world record for that stretch of the Yakima.

Oh there are big residents in west side rivers We see them all the time, though theres a big drop off at about 16 inches and a gap between the residents and smallest steelhead.

We once shocked a 16.5 inch brook trout in one of the upper spawning tribs in the watershed I work in. This was in mid summer, with maybe 2-3cfs, out of a 3' deep pool with a small root wad in it.

The Lewis above Swift has large rainbow and cutthroat...1-2 big fish per pool. There are also very large, over 10lb, adfluvial bull trout in the Lewis. They dont need to go to the ocean to get big because the reservoir is full of food fish.

The ri er I work on has a 13-16 inch rainbow in just about every large pool in the lower 10 miles. The upper river has them too, just a bit less numerous.

I know these examples are nothing like the Alaska example. There you have huge numbers of spawning salmon in good water quality in the lower reaches of rivers. It's a trout factory. It's nothing like the east side, the upper snake, Yellowstone, or upper Missouri system where bug densities can support high #s of big trout. I'm just saying they are there.

Anadromy is just a more successful strategy on the west side. Theres a biological imperative to get big so you can make more babies. The ones that dont do it get outnumbered quickly. In "my" river ther dont seem to be any female resident bows in the reaches accessible to steelhead. I've had my hands on thousands of ripe male trout over the years ranging from 4" to 18". Others working in the watershed have as well. Nobody that I know of has ever encountered a female.

I'm supposed to be working right now not rambling about this. Damn it.

I have a dream @chuck where I start dumping fertilizer and brown trout into some west side streams. Preferably those above big water falls which block migratory fish. Brown trout seem more adapted to living around mankind than other pussy fish that like their clean water and what not.

minion_doog

dflea said:

This place used to be stupid with fish.

And crab. And geoduck. And bottom fish.

Now it's just mostly stupid.

dflea said:

This place used to be stupid with fish.

And crab. And geoduck. And bottom fish.

Now it's just mostly stupid.

Every crusty angler I know told me I was stupid to by a boat.

dflea

minion_doog said:

dflea said:

This place used to be stupid with fish.

And crab. And geoduck. And bottom fish.

Now it's just mostly stupid.

dflea said:

This place used to be stupid with fish.

And crab. And geoduck. And bottom fish.

Now it's just mostly stupid.

Every crusty angler I know told me I was stupid to by a boat.

Don't get me wrong, there's still lots of opportunity out there. It just isn't easy like it used to be. We used to get Dungeness crabs and silvers off the dock. I still get crab and salmon and steelhead, but it requires real effort these days - just as my tolerance for effort declines.

I heard the same story from my dads and granddads, though, so I'm just the next in line singing the same tune.

I used to find it pretty easy to get pussy, too, and now that requires effort as well.

Fuck my life.

RaceBannon

When we spent our week at Iron Springs every summer we'd stop at Copalis and get fresh crab for the first night then go out in the morning and limit on razor clams in 10 minutes

I was pulling those fuckers out of the sand at age 6. Lots of clams not a lot of people

Kids today would be shocked at how few people used to inhabit Washington

Good times

YellowSnow

RaceBannon said:

When we spent our week at Iron Springs every summer we'd stop at Copalis and get fresh crab for the first night then go out in the morning and limit on razor clams in 10 minutes

I was pulling those fuckers out of the sand at age 6. Lots of clams not a lot of people

Kids today would be shocked at how few people used to inhabit Washington

Good times

Fucking Californians!!

minion_doog

dflea said:

minion_doog said:

dflea said:

This place used to be stupid with fish.

And crab. And geoduck. And bottom fish.

Now it's just mostly stupid.

dflea said:

This place used to be stupid with fish.

And crab. And geoduck. And bottom fish.

Now it's just mostly stupid.

Every crusty angler I know told me I was stupid to by a boat.

Don't get me wrong, there's still lots of opportunity out there. It just isn't easy like it used to be. We used to get Dungeness crabs and silvers off the dock. I still get crab and salmon and steelhead, but it requires real effort these days - just as my tolerance for effort declines.

I heard the same story from my dads and granddads, though, so I'm just the next in line singing the same tune.

I used to find it pretty easy to get pussy, too, and now that requires effort as well.

Fuck my life.

My ignorance for the days when you could walk across the river on the backs of salmon is a benefit. Dad always drug me into the woods with him but the river was his, alone. I'm just getting started, crab/shrimp like crazy but currently shopping kicker and downriggers.