Soul Train BOTBs Elite 8 (1960s) - #1 James Brown vs #2 Ray Charles

YellowSnow

Dennis_DeYoung

#1 James Brown

This one was really close, but James' part in creating rap put me over the top.

Also, how fucking insane is it that two of the finalists are blind?

YellowSnow

#1 James Brown

Dennis_DeYoung said:

This one was really close, but James' part in creating rap put me over the top.

Also, how fucking insane is it that two of the finalists are blind?

Brother Ray's period of artistic and commercial relevance lasted from about 1954- 1963. JB's was 1959- 1971 so advantage JB. James was there with Ray when early R&B became soul but he was also there in the late 60's inventing funk.

HillsboroDuck

#2 Ray Charles

Impossible choice. Flip a coin. I went with the underdog and because I stand with @GrandpaSankey but either option is good enough to win it all.

Dennis_DeYoung

#1 James Brown

Some of the difficulty with James is that what made him so great was his band... how much credit does he get for that? The reality is he controlled everything. He picked the players, he was famously demanding... so it makes it really complicated when comparing him. But he completely changed music by taking the 'vamp' part of songs and extending them to just groove. That changed everything, but it does result in his songs feeling a bit like they go nowhere... but holy shit. It changed things so drastically and - again - basically gave the template of break beats...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoQ4AtsFWVM

YellowSnow

#1 James Brown

Dennis_DeYoung said:

Some of the difficulty with James is that what made him so great was his band... how much credit does he get for that? The reality is he controlled everything. He picked the players, he was famously demanding... so it makes it really complicated when comparing him. But he completely changed music by taking the 'vamp' part of songs and extending them to just groove. That changed everything, but it does result in his songs feeling a bit like they go nowhere... but holy shit. It changed things so drastically and - again - basically gave the template of break beats...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoQ4AtsFWVM

Christ man @Dennis_DeYoung it means everything. He's like the greatest band leader of the era. I might vote JB all the way just based on the instrumentals alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2wYzU3XKqY

YellowSnow

#1 James Brown

I'm a little surprised by the likely outcome here- i.e., Brother Ray taking down James Brown to advance to the final 4 against Stevie Wonder. Poles will close at 5PM today and Final 4 on Friday.

alumni94

#1 James Brown

If James Brown doesn't win, you all know nothing about music.

PurpleThrobber

#2 Ray Charles

Dennis_DeYoung said:

This one was really close, but James' part in creating rap put me over the top.

Also, how fucking insane is it that two of the finalists are blind?

I'm working on going blind. Daily.

PurpleThrobber

#2 Ray Charles

alumni94 said:

If James Brown doesn't win, you all know nothing about music.

Disagree - James Brown was a RIDICULOUS entertainer. Hardest working man in show biz, you know.

As far as a musician -he was a'ight. He had his schtick screaming and dancing and wearing capes and shit. But solely on listening to his tunes....just a'ight.

On the other hand, you've got someone like Stevie Wonder who is a fucking prodigy musically. Total triple threat - singer, musician, composer. Prince probably was in that mode too until he apparently got too deep into other dabblings.

YellowSnow

#1 James Brown

Pole closed. Ray wins 10-8.

alumni94

#1 James Brown

PurpleThrobber said:

alumni94 said:

If James Brown doesn't win, you all know nothing about music.

Disagree - James Brown was a RIDICULOUS entertainer. Hardest working man in show biz, you know.

As far as a musician -he was a'ight. He had his schtick screaming and dancing and wearing capes and shit. But solely on listening to his tunes....just a'ight.

On the other hand, you've got someone like Stevie Wonder who is a fucking prodigy musically. Total triple threat - singer, musician, composer. Prince probably was in that mode too until he apparently got too deep into other dabblings.

I agree about your statements around Stevie Wonder, but I think these are the factors.

1. Hits created. Did they create music they public liked. (Not a one hit wonder either, had to do it over time).
2. Did they entertain. I'm not a bit fan of this, but I understand it's a factor.
3. Are they a great musician/singer. Talent counts.
4. Did they influence. I think this is the most important. They could have been ok in the other factors, but have a huge influence. I think this is where James Brown excels. He created a music style.

PurpleThrobber

#2 Ray Charles

alumni94 said:

PurpleThrobber said:

alumni94 said:

If James Brown doesn't win, you all know nothing about music.

Disagree - James Brown was a RIDICULOUS entertainer. Hardest working man in show biz, you know.

As far as a musician -he was a'ight. He had his schtick screaming and dancing and wearing capes and shit. But solely on listening to his tunes....just a'ight.

On the other hand, you've got someone like Stevie Wonder who is a fucking prodigy musically. Total triple threat - singer, musician, composer. Prince probably was in that mode too until he apparently got too deep into other dabblings.

I agree about your statements around Stevie Wonder, but I think these are the factors.

1. Hits created. Did they create music they public liked. (Not a one hit wonder either, had to do it over time).
2. Did they entertain. I'm not a bit fan of this, but I understand it's a factor.
3. Are they a great musician/singer. Talent counts.
4. Did they influence. I think this is the most important. They could have been ok in the other factors, but have a huge influence. I think this is where James Brown excels. He created a music style.

Stevie wins all four of your criteria.

GrandpaSankey

#2 Ray Charles

alumni94 said:

PurpleThrobber said:

alumni94 said:

If James Brown doesn't win, you all know nothing about music.

Disagree - James Brown was a RIDICULOUS entertainer. Hardest working man in show biz, you know.

As far as a musician -he was a'ight. He had his schtick screaming and dancing and wearing capes and shit. But solely on listening to his tunes....just a'ight.

On the other hand, you've got someone like Stevie Wonder who is a fucking prodigy musically. Total triple threat - singer, musician, composer. Prince probably was in that mode too until he apparently got too deep into other dabblings.

I agree about your statements around Stevie Wonder, but I think these are the factors.

1. Hits created. Did they create music they public liked. (Not a one hit wonder either, had to do it over time).
2. Did they entertain. I'm not a bit fan of this, but I understand it's a factor.
3. Are they a great musician/singer. Talent counts.
4. Did they influence. I think this is the most important. They could have been ok in the other factors, but have a huge influence. I think this is where James Brown excels. He created a music style.