You do wonder,

creepycoug

don't you, whether your favorite program is going to permanently suck? I mean, after 20 or so years, it seems like you'll be an old man before they return, if ever.

Think about the poor fucker who's still waiting for SMU to recover?

Maybe Miami will always suck. Maybe Washington will too. Or by the time they don't, I won't care anymore because I've picked up a wood carving hobby or something.

Fuck. What a shitty deal.

godawgst

Or the guys who were in their early 20's back in the 60's w/ Minnesota who grew up hearing about the great Minnesota teams back in the 40's/50's and have hammered thru 50 years of shit football.

I'm at 15, and have wondered if I should just lock myself in a room during husky games, work on a puzzle and save myself the time, aggravation etc.

Swaye

creepycoug said:

don't you, whether your favorite program is going to permanently suck? I mean, after 20 or so years, it seems like you'll be an old man before they return, if ever.

Think about the poor fucker who's still waiting for SMU to recover?

Maybe Miami will always suck. Maybe Washington will too. Or by the time they don't, I won't care anymore because I've picked up a wood carving hobby or something.

Fuck. What a shitty deal.

The sad thing for you is that the two programs have sucked at roughly the same time, giving you nothing but agony and pain.

HeretoBeatmyChest

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

greenblood

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

creepycoug

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

Kaepsknee

creepycoug said:

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

They may have recruited some stars. And every Power 5 school recruits Some good players. But Miami's mystique is long gone and even a 30 for 30 Part Tre' isn't bringing that back anytime soon. They are an also ran in the ACC and no longer have the tradition to make a hot up and comer take a serious look at coaching there.

MisterEm

salemcoog said:

creepycoug said:

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

They may have recruited some stars. And every Power 5 school recruits Some good players. But Miami's mystique is long gone and even a 30 for 30 Part Tre' isn't bringing that back anytime soon. They are an also ran in the ACC and no longer have the tradition to make a hot up and comer take a serious look at coaching there.

Sark should be out of rehab, tanned/rested/ready to rumble by the time the next hire Miami hire fails.

sarktastic

They could hire Sark out of rehab with Ed Orgeron as his DC and sobriety coach

PurpleThrobber

sarktastic said:

They could hire Sark out of rehab with Ed Orgeron as his DC and sobriety coach

And Uncle Luke get that partay jumpin'.

creepycoug

salemcoog said:

creepycoug said:

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

They may have recruited some stars. And every Power 5 school recruits Some good players. But Miami's mystique is long gone and even a 30 for 30 Part Tre' isn't bringing that back anytime soon. They are an also ran in the ACC and no longer have the tradition to make a hot up and comer take a serious look at coaching there.

Eh. There was a time when I wondered if Ohio State would ever again win a bowl game. Michigan hasn't been relevent since the mid 90s. Florida state went on a drought before their recent tittle run.

Hot up and comers will look at Dade County alone and see what can be done there. It's just a matter of the program being lucky enough to pick the right one.

They were a mess before Butch Davis showed up.

whatshouldicareabout

creepycoug said:

salemcoog said:

creepycoug said:

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

They may have recruited some stars. And every Power 5 school recruits Some good players. But Miami's mystique is long gone and even a 30 for 30 Part Tre' isn't bringing that back anytime soon. They are an also ran in the ACC and no longer have the tradition to make a hot up and comer take a serious look at coaching there.

Eh. There was a time when I wondered if Ohio State would ever again win a bowl game. Michigan hasn't been relevent since the mid 90s. Florida state went on a drought before their recent tittle run.

Hot up and comers will look at Dade County alone and see what can be done there. It's just a matter of the program being lucky enough to pick the right one.

They were a mess before Butch Davis showed up.

???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Michigan_vs._Ohio_State_football_game

RoadDawg55

I follow Miami more than I should. They just had five players drafted in the first 3 rounds in the past draft and seven total. They have had talent. They still have talent. Coaching is the problem. Golden sucks. Shannon was also terrible. Shannon had a #1 class filled with guys from Miami Northwestern. They had some fucking studs. Allen Bailey, Travis Benjamen, Tommy Streeter, Leonard Hankerson, a couple OL. Miami is still putting a lot of guys in the NFL.

Coaching matters.... Miami is just another example.

creepycoug

whatshouldicareabout said:

creepycoug said:

salemcoog said:

creepycoug said:

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

They may have recruited some stars. And every Power 5 school recruits Some good players. But Miami's mystique is long gone and even a 30 for 30 Part Tre' isn't bringing that back anytime soon. They are an also ran in the ACC and no longer have the tradition to make a hot up and comer take a serious look at coaching there.

Eh. There was a time when I wondered if Ohio State would ever again win a bowl game. Michigan hasn't been relevent since the mid 90s. Florida state went on a drought before their recent tittle run.

Hot up and comers will look at Dade County alone and see what can be done there. It's just a matter of the program being lucky enough to pick the right one.

They were a mess before Butch Davis showed up.

???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Michigan_vs._Ohio_State_football_game

yeah, forgot about 2006. losing the Rosebowel has that effect on memory.

creepycoug

RoadDawg55 said:

I follow Miami more than I should. They just had five players drafted in the first 3 rounds in the past draft and seven total. They have had talent. They still have talent. Coaching is the problem. Golden sucks. Shannon was also terrible. Shannon had a #1 class filled with guys from Miami Northwestern. They had some fucking studs. Allen Bailey, Travis Benjamen, Tommy Streeter, Leonard Hankerson, a couple OL. Miami is still putting a lot of guys in the NFL.

Coaching matters.... Miami is just another example.

Bingo. One could argue that any program, with or without tradition or "Iron Laws", is always a coach away from being a dominant force. Miami is definitely one of those programs.

You are spot on. The level of talent they produced from 2000 to 2002 or 3 was arguably unprecedented and clearly shouldn't be anybody's standard of measure, including Miami's.

But when I see NFL highlights, I still see a bunch of Miami guys still doing it, even though the players from that 2000 era are starting to peal off in their careers.

But I've come to believe that you really need to have lady luck on your side when picking a coach. Golden kind of fit the bill, in that he turned around a perennially dismal Temple program with Northeastern US left-over recruits, and he was young and known as a good recruiter.

Didn't pan out.

PurpleJ

Miami isn't fucked. They have south beach and hot chicks in one of the best recruiting territories in the nation. They just need to get a good coach and bring back thug ball. Washington needs to do that too, but we don't have a nice beach with hot chicks or a recruiting hotbed. We have bull dyke feminists and asians. We need to do a better job recruiting Cali.

Southerndawg

creepycoug said:

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

I couldn't agree more. With the right coach, Miami will rule college football again. They were nearly completely dead in the 70's. The University even considered dropping the football program. Then Schnellenberger took over the team and turned them into a national power. In year two he had them ranked and winning a bowl game. In year five he won a national championship and the rest is history.

They've always had access to (and competition for) some of the best high school football players in the country. Sanctions have hurt them some, mostly in terms of depth, but they still get talent. It boils down to getting the right coach, and when they do, look out, they're likely to field another historically good football team.

Mosster47

Miami had the best college roster ever assembled 14 years ago. That's not that long ago when you really think about it. Butch Davis isn't even a good coach but he had the right attitude to get kids to buy in.

Here is an absolute fact. If Chip Kelly was announced for Miami tomorrow they would be skull fucking the ACC in three years.

Miami still has a Top 10 recruiting class within 50 miles of its campus every year.

Kaepsknee

Southerndawg said:

creepycoug said:

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

I couldn't agree more. With the right coach, Miami will rule college football again. They were nearly completely dead in the 70's. The University even considered dropping the football program. Then Schnellenberger took over the team and turned them into a national power. In year two he had them ranked and winning a bowl game. In year five he won a national championship and the rest is history.

They've always had access to (and competition for) some of the best high school football players in the country. Sanctions have hurt them some, mostly in terms of depth, but they still get talent. It boils down to getting the right coach, and when they do, look out, they're likely to field another historically good football team.

KREIST.


The Doog or should I say Hoog is strong with this thread.

You can cook the fact that Miami will not be returning to a CFP caliber game anytime soon and I'll mail you the fuckin recipe.

creepycoug

salemcoog said:

Southerndawg said:

creepycoug said:

greenblood said:

HeretoBeatmyChest said:

Miami's collapse has been spectacular. This is a program that arguably was #1 in accomplishments in 2002.

UW's collapse has been noteworthy. Only Colorado's (in terms of an accomplished peer) has been worse.

But Jim Owens' last 11 years weren't a whole lot different than 2003 to 2013. The lows weren't quite as bad (1-9 in 1969 and 2-9 in 1973) and the highs were better (two 8-3 seasons). Overall it was only slight less shitty than the recent period.

What has killed Miami is the competition for Florida football talent. Up until 2002, Florida, Florida St. and Miami ruled that state for talent. With the rise in social media and television markets, being close to home is no longer as important. Now schools like Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Auburn, South Carolina, are heavily involved in that market. Heck even, Oregon has made in roads into the Florida market. Miami doesn't have their own stadium, and they don't have up to date facilities that many of these other schools offer. Also, the fact that the NCAA has nailed the school with sanction twice in a 16 year period, hasn't help things either.

Sanctions and Facilities (other than the stadium) don't matter, and where Bama, LSU and Louisville now routinely raid the talent in that state, it used to be Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State and Ohio State. Maybe they're all doing it, but talent isn't the main issue. Miami is still sending guys to the NFL, though not quite in the numbers it has in the past.

I think winning fixes all kinds of problems, but therein lies a bit of a chicken/egg dilemma.

The stadium situation sucks. It's not a bad venue, but the location sucks and it lacks that clear connection to the city of Miami that the Orange Bowl had.

Shannon and Golden have recruited some damn good players there though. They're still getting their share.

I couldn't agree more. With the right coach, Miami will rule college football again. They were nearly completely dead in the 70's. The University even considered dropping the football program. Then Schnellenberger took over the team and turned them into a national power. In year two he had them ranked and winning a bowl game. In year five he won a national championship and the rest is history.

They've always had access to (and competition for) some of the best high school football players in the country. Sanctions have hurt them some, mostly in terms of depth, but they still get talent. It boils down to getting the right coach, and when they do, look out, they're likely to field another historically good football team.

KREIST.


The Doog or should I say Hoog is strong with this thread.

You can cook the fact that Miami will not be returning to a CFP caliber game anytime soon and I'll mail you the fuckin recipe.

Last comment on this because: (1) post game will take a break from selling blow in the U district by aurora to come on here and topic-police me in the ass; and (2) the veracity of what's been said it's so obvious that I honestly believe that krisvashon might get it (which is really sad for you).

And my comment is, what the fuck would a hapless cewg know about a program returning to winning form? The cewgs have never had such a form to which they might someday return, so this is really fucking foreign territory for you my Oregon-living cewg friend. We may as well be arguing about particle physics and super colliders. GTFO of this convo. It's embarrassing.

Kaepsknee

The only thing embarrassing in this thread is your Cybil like cry for help. But do carry on. Tis a hoot.