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Correct. Even good auditors can easily be fooled on something so esoteric. The whole ESG angle complicates all of this as well. The Big 4 have gone all in on ESG, which should alarm everyone as it's clouding their judgment. There's a reason that FTX pretended to care about social/environmental justice, makes you impervious to traditional rules.creepycoug said:
As much inefficiency and pain in the ass those things are, you are spot on. I'm guessing we're going to learn that part of the problem here is that the auditors aren't yet very sophisticated in this space, and so even if they're on it, they're not really on it because they're learning as they go.WestlinnDuck said:
Also, don't invest in something like FTX unless you have an audit from a Big 4 accounting firm and also an audit of the internal controls.creepycoug said:
Agree. This is more about scandal and ridiculously smart children run amok and being drunk with power and getting caught with the dog.UW_Doog_Bot said:Tldr version, this is a big scandal but won't be systemic.
That said, the economy has systemic issues and is going to suck anyways.
In public company world, we all know that an auditor without a lot of industry experience is 1/2 an auditor. -
I'd bet a bunch of money that none of the Demonrats being paid from laundry lost a dime of illegal money. Not a fucking dime.
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They used quickbooks lol. There was no audit. I can't move past this. It's hilariousBob_C said:
Correct. Even good auditors can easily be fooled on something so esoteric. The whole ESG angle complicates all of this as well. The Big 4 have gone all in on ESG, which should alarm everyone as it's clouding their judgment. There's a reason that FTX pretended to care about social/environmental justice, makes you impervious to traditional rules.creepycoug said:
As much inefficiency and pain in the ass those things are, you are spot on. I'm guessing we're going to learn that part of the problem here is that the auditors aren't yet very sophisticated in this space, and so even if they're on it, they're not really on it because they're learning as they go.WestlinnDuck said:
Also, don't invest in something like FTX unless you have an audit from a Big 4 accounting firm and also an audit of the internal controls.creepycoug said:
Agree. This is more about scandal and ridiculously smart children run amok and being drunk with power and getting caught with the dog.UW_Doog_Bot said:Tldr version, this is a big scandal but won't be systemic.
That said, the economy has systemic issues and is going to suck anyways.
In public company world, we all know that an auditor without a lot of industry experience is 1/2 an auditor.
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What's worse is billions of the hundreds of billions you and I gave to the Ukraine ended up in FTX which ended up in the dRAT party hands to steal elections. Are any of you awake yet? Now they want to play a new game in Africa. How did that old Aids game go in Africa? Fauci, Gates and the Clintons got rich but how are poor African kids doing? I hear this new game will bring them into the digital age. Obama phones for EVERYONE!creepycoug said:
Although, if I understand this correctly, FTX is just a trading platform. But the guy running it also founded Alameda, which takes positions for its own account and which was being run by the Ellison girl, who was in the FTX guy's harem of noyds. So, if I have this straight, it would be as if the NYSE were itself part of a scandal in which your equity position in XYZ corp. just vanished because the exchange was fucking around. Of course, it's a little easier to track down shares, even those held in street name. But that's the idea as I understand it.WestlinnDuck said:
It's being described as a run on a bank. Ok, sure, banks loan out money, so if the algo fails because some externality causes a run and everyone withdraws on the same day, then that's a problem because deposit liability does not equal deposit reserves on hand.
But FTX is a trading platform. How do they have a liquidity crisis unless they are taking positions for their own account? -
WestlinnDuck said:
Also, don't invest in something like FTX unless you have an audit from a Big 4 accounting firm and also an audit of the internal controls.creepycoug said:
Agree. This is more about scandal and ridiculously smart children run amok and being drunk with power and getting caught with the dog.UW_Doog_Bot said:Tldr version, this is a big scandal but won't be systemic.
That said, the economy has systemic issues and is going to suck anyways.
Quickbooks doesn’t actually require a debit and a credit for every transaction. Fun fact.Pitchfork51 said:
They used quickbooks lol. There was no audit. I can't move past this. It's hilariousBob_C said:
Correct. Even good auditors can easily be fooled on something so esoteric. The whole ESG angle complicates all of this as well. The Big 4 have gone all in on ESG, which should alarm everyone as it's clouding their judgment. There's a reason that FTX pretended to care about social/environmental justice, makes you impervious to traditional rules.creepycoug said:
As much inefficiency and pain in the ass those things are, you are spot on. I'm guessing we're going to learn that part of the problem here is that the auditors aren't yet very sophisticated in this space, and so even if they're on it, they're not really on it because they're learning as they go.WestlinnDuck said:
Also, don't invest in something like FTX unless you have an audit from a Big 4 accounting firm and also an audit of the internal controls.creepycoug said:
Agree. This is more about scandal and ridiculously smart children run amok and being drunk with power and getting caught with the dog.UW_Doog_Bot said:Tldr version, this is a big scandal but won't be systemic.
That said, the economy has systemic issues and is going to suck anyways.
In public company world, we all know that an auditor without a lot of industry experience is 1/2 an auditor. -
You can straight up just change or delete anything lolBob_C said:WestlinnDuck said:
Also, don't invest in something like FTX unless you have an audit from a Big 4 accounting firm and also an audit of the internal controls.creepycoug said:
Agree. This is more about scandal and ridiculously smart children run amok and being drunk with power and getting caught with the dog.UW_Doog_Bot said:Tldr version, this is a big scandal but won't be systemic.
That said, the economy has systemic issues and is going to suck anyways.
Quickbooks doesn’t actually require a debit and a credit for every transaction. Fun fact.Pitchfork51 said:
They used quickbooks lol. There was no audit. I can't move past this. It's hilariousBob_C said:
Correct. Even good auditors can easily be fooled on something so esoteric. The whole ESG angle complicates all of this as well. The Big 4 have gone all in on ESG, which should alarm everyone as it's clouding their judgment. There's a reason that FTX pretended to care about social/environmental justice, makes you impervious to traditional rules.creepycoug said:
As much inefficiency and pain in the ass those things are, you are spot on. I'm guessing we're going to learn that part of the problem here is that the auditors aren't yet very sophisticated in this space, and so even if they're on it, they're not really on it because they're learning as they go.WestlinnDuck said:
Also, don't invest in something like FTX unless you have an audit from a Big 4 accounting firm and also an audit of the internal controls.creepycoug said:
Agree. This is more about scandal and ridiculously smart children run amok and being drunk with power and getting caught with the dog.UW_Doog_Bot said:Tldr version, this is a big scandal but won't be systemic.
That said, the economy has systemic issues and is going to suck anyways.
In public company world, we all know that an auditor without a lot of industry experience is 1/2 an auditor.
I could go on for days -
FTX wasn't complicated. You ask them to buy Bitcoin for you. They are supposed to buy Bitcoin for you and have a deposit record showing the purchase. Not hard to do a stat sample and determine they were just making accounting entries and shoveling the money to Alameda. You do a bank audit and they can pull a sample of deposits and then verify that the money was deposited and that the cash asset exists and the deposit liability is properly recorded. Basic double entry accounting along with counting the beans. If the beans exist, you need to determine the value of the bean, and I agree in a speculative market with little liquidity, that can be a challenge. That was the problem with the sub prime mortgage market in 2008. You had the Feds buying significant amounts of these mortgages at face. Therefore, face was the value of the mortgage asset in the hands of investors like Lehman. Until the shear volume of the sub prime loans overloaded the system and they weren't worth face, but pennies on the dollar. Down goes Lehman,Bob_C said:
Correct. Even good auditors can easily be fooled on something so esoteric. The whole ESG angle complicates all of this as well. The Big 4 have gone all in on ESG, which should alarm everyone as it's clouding their judgment. There's a reason that FTX pretended to care about social/environmental justice, makes you impervious to traditional rules.creepycoug said:
As much inefficiency and pain in the ass those things are, you are spot on. I'm guessing we're going to learn that part of the problem here is that the auditors aren't yet very sophisticated in this space, and so even if they're on it, they're not really on it because they're learning as they go.WestlinnDuck said:
Also, don't invest in something like FTX unless you have an audit from a Big 4 accounting firm and also an audit of the internal controls.creepycoug said:
Agree. This is more about scandal and ridiculously smart children run amok and being drunk with power and getting caught with the dog.UW_Doog_Bot said:Tldr version, this is a big scandal but won't be systemic.
That said, the economy has systemic issues and is going to suck anyways.
In public company world, we all know that an auditor without a lot of industry experience is 1/2 an auditor. -
This made me laugh @creepycoug
Hadn't seen the Block report...but Marc Cohodes took the FTX scam to Bloomberg a while back and they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole, in part because of all the advertising revenue FTX was bringing in according to him. Its the entire reason people including and esp crooks throw the advertising and like $$$ around...same reason folks donate heavily into politics. You don't have to have a blatant quid-pro-quo bribe...you just throw enough money around and you magically and probably many times unconsciously get averted eyes, nobody asking questions from related parties because they don't want to rock the boat, and everyone pushing anything close to a 50/50 option your way.creepycoug said:
"If there's ever a place I can be in and not get in trouble, it's FTX."HoustonHusky said:
Lolz. When are they going to run that Canadian fuck off shark tank? Probably never because he and Cuban are the only really entertaining sharks.
@HoustonHusky did you see that SBF also made big loans to the Block, basically Crypto's Bloomberg? Loans to fund the management buyout, loans for operating capital and, finally, a loan to the CEO to buy property in the Bahamas.
I know a guy at Block, and he readily points out that it was isolated at the CEO level, no indication that he tried to direct how stories were written about FTX. And in all fairness, their writers were among the first to publicly ask questions about FTX and Alameda and among the first to suggest there was something rotten in Denmark. But still, a bad look to say the least.
I don't think it's going away any tim soon. But there will/should be a housecleaning.
The moral of the story for me isn't about the risk in alternative investments. The market handles that risk just fine IMHO. The real moral of the story is you don't put 20-something year olds in absolute charge of $billions of dollars anywhere anytime. I don't care if you have a PhD in math from MIT; there is no substitute or experience.
I'd be shocked though if everyone at Block was oblivious to it all until recently...people were talking about it early this year.
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Man isn't that the truth.HoustonHusky said:This made me laugh @creepycoug
Hadn't seen the Block report...but Marc Cohodes took the FTX scam to Bloomberg a while back and they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole, in part because of all the advertising revenue FTX was bringing in according to him. Its the entire reason people including and esp crooks throw the advertising and like $$$ around...same reason folks donate heavily into politics. You don't have to have a blatant quid-pro-quo bribe...you just throw enough money around and you magically and probably many times unconsciously get averted eyes, nobody asking questions from related parties because they don't want to rock the boat, and everyone pushing anything close to a 50/50 option your way.creepycoug said:
"If there's ever a place I can be in and not get in trouble, it's FTX."HoustonHusky said:
Lolz. When are they going to run that Canadian fuck off shark tank? Probably never because he and Cuban are the only really entertaining sharks.
@HoustonHusky did you see that SBF also made big loans to the Block, basically Crypto's Bloomberg? Loans to fund the management buyout, loans for operating capital and, finally, a loan to the CEO to buy property in the Bahamas.
I know a guy at Block, and he readily points out that it was isolated at the CEO level, no indication that he tried to direct how stories were written about FTX. And in all fairness, their writers were among the first to publicly ask questions about FTX and Alameda and among the first to suggest there was something rotten in Denmark. But still, a bad look to say the least.
I don't think it's going away any tim soon. But there will/should be a housecleaning.
The moral of the story for me isn't about the risk in alternative investments. The market handles that risk just fine IMHO. The real moral of the story is you don't put 20-something year olds in absolute charge of $billions of dollars anywhere anytime. I don't care if you have a PhD in math from MIT; there is no substitute or experience.
I'd be shocked though if everyone at Block was oblivious to it all until recently...people were talking about it early this year. -
How's Silvergate doing today? Still seems ~$11/share too high...HoustonHusky said:It’s a serious shiteshow, but not for the major banks and hedge funds so it won’t be a Lehman-type scenario. You’ll see some of the shady banks (looking at you Silvergate) and lots of these crypto companies/funds blow up, but the main banks got involved in just pitching the shite and taking the commissions…their money wasn’t at risk. You’ll see a few of the crazier retirement funds (*cough* Ontario looking at you *cough*) lose chunks of money as well, but the govts will just print more money to cover those folks. And all the shitecoins will be gone in a couple of years unless the govt starts the massive money printing again.
This economic mess is/will be very different than last time as they usually are…do think the Central Banks are screwed. They have to raise rates to kill inflation and demand (we are at the tip of the iceberg there), but the amount of debt piled up limits how long they can do that. But they also can’t go and massively cut rates/stimulate, because the woke idiots of the world have created a huge global energy supply problem and if/when the global economy takes off again there won’t be enough energy to go around and you’ll get another bout of global inflation real quick (one of the main reasons China is still locked down and building a shit-ton of coal power plants right now…they know it too and the ChiComs can’t afford the unrest that inflation would likely cause internally).
At least until everyone builds another magical windmill to fix the problem or tell these woke morons to go pound sand…
I do hope the Fed finally catches a clue and chooses never to go back to the insanity of 0% interest rates again…some people think they finally learned their lesson but I have my doubts.
Watched an interesting discussion yesterday on what some folks expect. Blackrock curbed redemptions on its REIT a little while back, in part to be able to keep its book marked higher than reality by preventing enough redemptions to force them to actually sell anything and book it at market (much lower) value, which would force them to have to reprice a lot of their assets. They also took out a street-style loan from California as well...which doesn't bode well for either party...
https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/blackstone-limits-redemptions-69-billion-reit-2022-12-01/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/university-of-california-to-invest-4-billion-in-blackstones-breit-real-estate-vehicle-11672723902
One argument is that a lot of the PE groups are trying to prevent the proper valuations on their non-publicly traded assets, and will be scrambling for funds from other sources in all sorts of ways to do it. And as the economy falters more and more people will be scrambling trying to get access to their tied up capital. Pretty interesting discussion...all goes back to the Fed pivot and everyone praying it happens soon because they will blow up if it doesn't. And TBH for everyone's sake I hope it doesn't happen soon.
