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Did Japan have a choice?
The US basically cut off their access to oil (sense a theme for the next 75 years) and Japan felt like they had no choice ...
Their only chance was to destroy everything at Pearl and then what remained at Midway ...
Japan was NEVER going to win ... their only chance was to give us enough defeats to leave the Western US vulnerable to the point that we had no choice but to cave in.
Everybody knew that the real battle was in Europe and that's rightfully where the bulk of the attention was.
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The real battle WAS in Europe, which is why we cut off their oil when and how we did. The surprise was that, when they did attack south to secure oil, bauxite, and rubber from the Dutch East Indies, they also attacked Pearl.Tequilla said:Did Japan have a choice?
The US basically cut off their access to oil (sense a theme for the next 75 years) and Japan felt like they had no choice ...
Their only chance was to destroy everything at Pearl and then what remained at Midway ...
Japan was NEVER going to win ... their only chance was to give us enough defeats to leave the Western US vulnerable to the point that we had no choice but to cave in.
Everybody knew that the real battle was in Europe and that's rightfully where the bulk of the attention was. -
Well, that and the fact that Japan had basically been running roughshod over Korea and China for the seven or eight years prior, raping and pillaging at a pace that would make a Viking blush.BearsWiin said:
The real battle WAS in Europe, which is why we cut off their oil when and how we did. The surprise was that, when they did attack south to secure oil, bauxite, and rubber from the Dutch East Indies, they also attacked Pearl.Tequilla said:Did Japan have a choice?
The US basically cut off their access to oil (sense a theme for the next 75 years) and Japan felt like they had no choice ...
Their only chance was to destroy everything at Pearl and then what remained at Midway ...
Japan was NEVER going to win ... their only chance was to give us enough defeats to leave the Western US vulnerable to the point that we had no choice but to cave in.
Everybody knew that the real battle was in Europe and that's rightfully where the bulk of the attention was.
And the Japanese were also the ones who walked out of the League of Nations and blew up the Armistice of WW I.
But, yeah, oil. -
We had been threatening an oil embargo since May 1940, but for 16 months it was all just talk. We did it when we did (early August 1941), and how we did (full, not limited) to protect the Soviets. If it had been about protecting mainland slants, we'd have done it much earlier.PurpleThrobber said:
Well, that and the fact that Japan had basically been running roughshod over Korea and China for the seven or eight years prior, raping and pillaging at a pace that would make a Viking blush.BearsWiin said:
The real battle WAS in Europe, which is why we cut off their oil when and how we did. The surprise was that, when they did attack south to secure oil, bauxite, and rubber from the Dutch East Indies, they also attacked Pearl.Tequilla said:Did Japan have a choice?
The US basically cut off their access to oil (sense a theme for the next 75 years) and Japan felt like they had no choice ...
Their only chance was to destroy everything at Pearl and then what remained at Midway ...
Japan was NEVER going to win ... their only chance was to give us enough defeats to leave the Western US vulnerable to the point that we had no choice but to cave in.
Everybody knew that the real battle was in Europe and that's rightfully where the bulk of the attention was.
And the Japanese were also the ones who walked out of the League of Nations and blew up the Armistice of WW I.
But, yeah, oil. -
Guys can't we just be happy about being 2-0 in world championships?
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Yes, Yamamoto was very clear about awaking the sleeping giant; and that he could only give his country 6 months or so to establish a defensive perimeter before the US counter-offensive began. But part of the miscalculation - beyond their not forseeing our will to fight them to the point of unconditional surrender - was not fully grasping what our wartime economy would be able to throw at Japan.BearsWiin said:
Actually, Yamamoto was very clear about this. It was Goering who thought we were only good at making refrigerators and razor blades.YellowSnow said:
Yes, Japan underestimated our will to wage war. But will alone doesn't win wars now does it? They couldn't comprehend the wave of steel and aluminum that would be coming their way.BearsWiin said:
fixedYellowSnow said:It's mind boggling to consider how much the Japanese underestimated our
industrial capacitywill.
Sure Yamamoto and the rest could foresee that the US would be able to build a lot of ships and planes, but what they failed to comprehend was the scale, pace, and technology involved. In 1941 we had B-17s and B-24s. They weren't thinking in terms that the US could build a completely new bomber (B-29) in just a few years that could fly higher and faster that any Japanese fighter; and have the range and payload to devestate the Japanese mainland. The two factors ultimately sealed Japan's final fate were: (1) our subs sunk most of their merchant shipping by mid to late 1944; and (2) the capture of the Marianas put the mainland in reach of our B-29s.
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Look, it's easy to assess capabilities. It's harder to assess intentions, especially if you are culturally different. They knew our capabilities and potential. They miscalculated our will to fight.
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Which was odd because Hitler thought we were gangsters. Gangsters get evenBearsWiin said:Look, it's easy to assess capabilities. It's harder to assess intentions, especially if you are culturally different. They knew our capabilities and potential. They miscalculated our will to fight.
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This is true. Hitler was terrified of us. That's why they went east at full tilt through that impossible winter. They could have held off and taken Russia in the spring, but we would have been there by then and it would have been game over before they even got started.RaceBannon said:
Which was odd because Hitler thought we were gangsters. Gangsters get evenBearsWiin said:Look, it's easy to assess capabilities. It's harder to assess intentions, especially if you are culturally different. They knew our capabilities and potential. They miscalculated our will to fight.
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Of course I know what I'm talking about. I was talking WWII and you're talking today. The ball gets batted back and forth because we don't want to harm any non-combatants. We had no such compunction in WWII, see LeMay. In fact Allied bombing of Europe killed 250,000 Allied civilians.Mosster47 said:
You have no idea what you are talking about. We have lost under 10k in 16 years and we have absolutely slaughtered the enemy in that time.Sledog said:
More than the atom bombs. We fought war to win and keep our losses to a minimum not the enemies.Mosster47 said:
LeMay burned up more yellow people than VD.PurpleThrobber said:
MacArthur was a fuckwad.Mosster47 said:Why Nimitz isn't held in the same regard as Patton and Mac is fucking retarded.
Zhukov was the best general in WW2.
We don't win anymore because it's terrible for business. How many tank orders came in after VE and VJ days? Almost zero.
If you don't have those parades and you bat the ball back and forth forever the tank, plane, and bomb orders never stop.
If it's war you kill the enemy and keep killing them until they give up completely or run out of people to kill.
Now everyone thinks we can do it all without harming anyone and our current enemies hide among and are supported by the general population. They may not all be bad but it sure is hard to sort them out! -
We? dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than on Germany and Japan combined. Killed about 1/15th of the North Vietnamese civilian population, plus 60,000 Cambodians.Sledog said:
Of course I know what I'm talking about. I was talking WWII and you're talking today. The ball gets batted back and forth because we don't want to harm any non-combatants. We had no such compunction in WWII, see LeMay. In fact Allied bombing of Europe killed 250,000 Allied civilians.Mosster47 said:
You have no idea what you are talking about. We have lost under 10k in 16 years and we have absolutely slaughtered the enemy in that time.Sledog said:
More than the atom bombs. We fought war to win and keep our losses to a minimum not the enemies.Mosster47 said:
LeMay burned up more yellow people than VD.PurpleThrobber said:
MacArthur was a fuckwad.Mosster47 said:Why Nimitz isn't held in the same regard as Patton and Mac is fucking retarded.
Zhukov was the best general in WW2.
We don't win anymore because it's terrible for business. How many tank orders came in after VE and VJ days? Almost zero.
If you don't have those parades and you bat the ball back and forth forever the tank, plane, and bomb orders never stop.
If it's war you kill the enemy and keep killing them until they give up completely or run out of people to kill.
Now everyone thinks we can do it all without harming anyone and our current enemies hide among and are supported by the general population. They may not all be bad but it sure is hard to sort them out!
Worked great! -
This. We would still be in Nam today if Haliburton, Northrup, Lockheed, Adtran, and Lockheed were calling the shots then like they are now.AZDuck said:
We? dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than on Germany and Japan combined. Killed about 1/15th of the North Vietnamese civilian population, plus 60,000 Cambodians.Sledog said:
Of course I know what I'm talking about. I was talking WWII and you're talking today. The ball gets batted back and forth because we don't want to harm any non-combatants. We had no such compunction in WWII, see LeMay. In fact Allied bombing of Europe killed 250,000 Allied civilians.Mosster47 said:
You have no idea what you are talking about. We have lost under 10k in 16 years and we have absolutely slaughtered the enemy in that time.Sledog said:
More than the atom bombs. We fought war to win and keep our losses to a minimum not the enemies.Mosster47 said:
LeMay burned up more yellow people than VD.PurpleThrobber said:
MacArthur was a fuckwad.Mosster47 said:Why Nimitz isn't held in the same regard as Patton and Mac is fucking retarded.
Zhukov was the best general in WW2.
We don't win anymore because it's terrible for business. How many tank orders came in after VE and VJ days? Almost zero.
If you don't have those parades and you bat the ball back and forth forever the tank, plane, and bomb orders never stop.
If it's war you kill the enemy and keep killing them until they give up completely or run out of people to kill.
Now everyone thinks we can do it all without harming anyone and our current enemies hide among and are supported by the general population. They may not all be bad but it sure is hard to sort them out!
Worked great!
Unconditional surrender, pulling out, and cease fires are bad for business. Look at the 50 year cease fire in Korea they are trying to get back going. That's trillions in lost business. -
You're like Smedley Butler meets Harvard Business school case studyMosster47 said:
This. We would still be in Nam today if Haliburton, Northrup, Lockheed, Adtran, and Lockheed were calling the shots then like they are now.AZDuck said:
We? dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than on Germany and Japan combined. Killed about 1/15th of the North Vietnamese civilian population, plus 60,000 Cambodians.Sledog said:
Of course I know what I'm talking about. I was talking WWII and you're talking today. The ball gets batted back and forth because we don't want to harm any non-combatants. We had no such compunction in WWII, see LeMay. In fact Allied bombing of Europe killed 250,000 Allied civilians.Mosster47 said:
You have no idea what you are talking about. We have lost under 10k in 16 years and we have absolutely slaughtered the enemy in that time.Sledog said:
More than the atom bombs. We fought war to win and keep our losses to a minimum not the enemies.Mosster47 said:
LeMay burned up more yellow people than VD.PurpleThrobber said:
MacArthur was a fuckwad.Mosster47 said:Why Nimitz isn't held in the same regard as Patton and Mac is fucking retarded.
Zhukov was the best general in WW2.
We don't win anymore because it's terrible for business. How many tank orders came in after VE and VJ days? Almost zero.
If you don't have those parades and you bat the ball back and forth forever the tank, plane, and bomb orders never stop.
If it's war you kill the enemy and keep killing them until they give up completely or run out of people to kill.
Now everyone thinks we can do it all without harming anyone and our current enemies hide among and are supported by the general population. They may not all be bad but it sure is hard to sort them out!
Worked great!
Unconditional surrender, pulling out, and cease fires are bad for business. Look at the 50 year cease fire in Korea they are trying to get back going. That's trillions in lost business. -
I have no idea what this means but chins all around regardless.AZDuck said:
You're like Smedley Butler meets Harvard Business school case studyMosster47 said:
This. We would still be in Nam today if Haliburton, Northrup, Lockheed, Adtran, and Lockheed were calling the shots then like they are now.AZDuck said:
We? dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than on Germany and Japan combined. Killed about 1/15th of the North Vietnamese civilian population, plus 60,000 Cambodians.Sledog said:
Of course I know what I'm talking about. I was talking WWII and you're talking today. The ball gets batted back and forth because we don't want to harm any non-combatants. We had no such compunction in WWII, see LeMay. In fact Allied bombing of Europe killed 250,000 Allied civilians.Mosster47 said:
You have no idea what you are talking about. We have lost under 10k in 16 years and we have absolutely slaughtered the enemy in that time.Sledog said:
More than the atom bombs. We fought war to win and keep our losses to a minimum not the enemies.Mosster47 said:
LeMay burned up more yellow people than VD.PurpleThrobber said:
MacArthur was a fuckwad.Mosster47 said:Why Nimitz isn't held in the same regard as Patton and Mac is fucking retarded.
Zhukov was the best general in WW2.
We don't win anymore because it's terrible for business. How many tank orders came in after VE and VJ days? Almost zero.
If you don't have those parades and you bat the ball back and forth forever the tank, plane, and bomb orders never stop.
If it's war you kill the enemy and keep killing them until they give up completely or run out of people to kill.
Now everyone thinks we can do it all without harming anyone and our current enemies hide among and are supported by the general population. They may not all be bad but it sure is hard to sort them out!
Worked great!
Unconditional surrender, pulling out, and cease fires are bad for business. Look at the 50 year cease fire in Korea they are trying to get back going. That's trillions in lost business. -
You have inadvertently described the problem. We weren't bombing the right places. When we full pressed on Hanoi and Haiphong, which had been off limits, they ran to the negotiating table and the war ended, for us. They kept on going.AZDuck said:
We? dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than on Germany and Japan combined. Killed about 1/15th of the North Vietnamese civilian population, plus 60,000 Cambodians.Sledog said:
Of course I know what I'm talking about. I was talking WWII and you're talking today. The ball gets batted back and forth because we don't want to harm any non-combatants. We had no such compunction in WWII, see LeMay. In fact Allied bombing of Europe killed 250,000 Allied civilians.Mosster47 said:
You have no idea what you are talking about. We have lost under 10k in 16 years and we have absolutely slaughtered the enemy in that time.Sledog said:
More than the atom bombs. We fought war to win and keep our losses to a minimum not the enemies.Mosster47 said:
LeMay burned up more yellow people than VD.PurpleThrobber said:
MacArthur was a fuckwad.Mosster47 said:Why Nimitz isn't held in the same regard as Patton and Mac is fucking retarded.
Zhukov was the best general in WW2.
We don't win anymore because it's terrible for business. How many tank orders came in after VE and VJ days? Almost zero.
If you don't have those parades and you bat the ball back and forth forever the tank, plane, and bomb orders never stop.
If it's war you kill the enemy and keep killing them until they give up completely or run out of people to kill.
Now everyone thinks we can do it all without harming anyone and our current enemies hide among and are supported by the general population. They may not all be bad but it sure is hard to sort them out!
Worked great!
