For all you Alt-right nuts, there is a PBS special about Ruby Ridge on right now

oregonblitzkrieg said:

Sacrifice Baphomet to bring back Beelzebub.

It wouldn't be a sacrifice at all...

Baphomet said:

PurpleThrobber said:

You mean when Clinton's feds murdered a young boy and his mother because their dad was entrapped into selling a sawed off shotgun?

That is a passage from the book of Aryan as foretold by Richard Girnt Butler.

You are a fine acolayde of the Christian Identity movement.

It is glorious that you work in fervent discipline to prepare for the day that the UN invades our Christian nation to impose their socialist utopia.

Thank God that Trump is here. To instead, invite the Russians to invade, to impose their fascist socialist utopia.

So I was like 11 when all this shit went down and only vaguely remember hearing about it on the news. This thread inspired me to go read the Wiki page about it. Serious question, what exactly is the other side to this? Throbber's summary lines up pretty strongly with the wiki page. Everyone who was under siege was acquitted of basically everything, multiple government officials and agencies were found guilty of major mistakes. The rules of engagement were shit. The shot fired that killed the wife/mom was shit. The shot fired that killed the boy may or may not have been shit. The Weavers got over $3 million from the Feds for wrongful death. Wiki's not exactly an alt right source. What is the pro government argument here?

Ruby Ridge was the site of a deadly confrontation and eleven-day siege near Naples, Idaho, beginning on August 21, 1992, between Randy Weaver, members of his immediate family and a family friend Kevin Harris, and agents of the United States Marshals Service (USMS) and the Hostage Rescue Team of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI HRT). Following USMS reconnoiter of the Weaver property pursuant a bench warrant for Weaver after his failure to appear on firearms charges, an initial encounter of six marshals with the Weavers resulted in a firefight and the deaths of Deputy U.S. Marshal William Francis Degan, age 42, the Weaver's son Samuel (Sammy), age 14, and a Weaver family dog, all by gunshot. The subsequent siege of the Weaver residence, led by the FBI applying especially lethal rules of engagement (ROE, subsequently called into question by U.S. Department of Justice and U.S. Senate investigators), resulted in the further death of Vicki Weaver, age 43, the wife of Randy Weaver, by FBI sniper fire. All casualties occurred on the opening two days of the operations, the special ROE that had been in effect since the arrival of the FBI HRT on August 22 were revoked on August 26, and the siege and stand-off were ultimately resolved by civilian negotiators, with surrender and arrest of Kevin Harris on August 30, and surrender of Randy Weaver and the surviving Weaver children, and the father's arrest, the next day.

Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris were subsequently arraigned on a variety of federal criminal charges, including first-degree murder over the death of Degan of the USMS; Harris was acquitted of all charges, and Weaver was ultimately acquitted of all charges except violating conditions of his original bail for the arms charges, and for having missed his original court. He was sentenced to 18 months and fined $10,000, ultimately serving an additional 4 months in prison after time served.[not verified in body] In an out-of-court settlement in August 1995, the federal government awarded Randy Weaver $100,000 and his three daughters $1 million each. In September 2000, after persistent appeals, Kevin Harris was awarded a $380,000 settlement from the government.

During the federal criminal trial of Weaver and Harris, Weaver's attorney Gerry Spence made accusations of "criminal wrongdoing" against every agency involved in the incident: the FBI, the USMS, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), and the United States Attorney's Office (USAO) for Idaho. At the completion of the trial, the Department of Justice's Office of Professional Responsibility formed the Ruby Ridge Task Force (RRTF) to investigate Spence's charges. The redacted RRTF report was first released in 1994 by Lexis Counsel Connect, an information service for attorneys,[1][citation needed] and has subsequently become available in PDF form from the Justice Department.[2][citation needed] In both its redacted and complete forms, the report, at its face, raises questions about the conduct and policy of all of the participating agencies.[citation needed] To answer public questions about Ruby Ridge, the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information held a total of 14 days of hearings between September 6 and October 19, 1995, and subsequently issued a report calling for reforms in federal law enforcement to prevent a repeat of the tragic losses of life at Ruby Ridge, and to restore public confidence in federal law enforcement.[verification needed]

The Ruby Ridge incident and the 1993 Waco siege involved many of the same agencies (e.g., the FBI HRT and the ATF) and some of the same personnel (e.g., the FBI HRT commander), and caused public outcry and is argued to have fueled the widening of the militia movement.[citation needed] Likewise, these events are seen as a motive for the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.[not verified in body]

Randy Weaver, a former Iowa factory worker and U.S. Army combat engineer,[3][better source needed] moved with his family to northern Idaho during the 1980s in order to "home-school his children and escape what he and his wife Vicki saw as a corrupted world".[4][better source needed][5] Vicki, the religious leader of the family, believed that the apocalypse was imminent and believed her family would survive the apocalypse in a remote mountainous area. They bought 20 acres (8 ha) of land on Ruby Ridge in 1983 and began building a cabin.[6][7] The Weaver property was located in northern Idaho in Boundary County, on a hillside on Ruby Creek opposite Caribou Ridge near Naples.[8][page needed]

In 1984, Randy Weaver and his neighbor Terry Kinnison had a dispute over a $3,000 land deal. Kinnison lost the ensuing lawsuit and was ordered to pay Weaver an additional $2,100 in court costs and damages. Kinnison wrote letters to the FBI, Secret Service, and county sheriff alleging Weaver had threatened to kill the Pope, the President, and John V. Evans, governor of Idaho. In January 1985, the FBI and the Secret Service started an investigation. In February, Randy and Vicki Weaver were interviewed for hours by two FBI agents, two Secret Service agents, and the Boundary County sheriff and his chief investigator.[9] Although the Secret Service was told[according to whom?] that Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nations and that he had a large weapon cache at his residence, Weaver denied the allegations, and no charges were filed.[10][page needed]

The investigation noted that Weaver associated with Frank Kumnick, who was known to associate with members of the Aryan Nations. Weaver told the investigators that neither he nor Kumnick were members of the Aryan Nations and described Kumnick as "associated with the Covenant, Sword, and Arm of the Lord".[10][page needed] On February 28, 1985, Randy and Vicki Weaver filed an affidavit with the county courthouse alleging that their personal enemies were plotting to provoke the FBI into attacking and killing the Weaver family.[9] On May 6, 1985, Randy and Vicki Weaver sent a letter to President Ronald Reagan claiming that Weaver's enemies may have sent the president a threatening letter under a forged signature. No evidence of a threatening letter surfaced; however, the 1985 letter was cited by the prosecutor in 1992 as overt act 7 of the Weaver family conspiracy against the federal government.[11][page needed][12][page needed]
ATF involvement

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms first became aware of Weaver in July 1986 when he was introduced to an ATF informant at a meeting of the Aryan Nations. Weaver had been invited by Frank Kumnick, who was the original target of the ATF investigation. It was Weaver's first attendance. Over the next three years, Weaver and the informant met several times.[10][page needed] In October 1989, the ATF claimed that Weaver sold the informant two sawed-off shotguns, with the overall length of the guns shorter than the legal limit set by federal law. In November 1989, Weaver accused the ATF informant of being a spy for the police; Weaver later wrote he had been warned by "Rico V."[13] The informant's handler, Herb Byerly, ordered him to have no further contact with Weaver. Eventually, the FBI informant Rico Valentino outed the ATF informant to Aryan Nations security.[14]

The ATF agent Byerly had come to regard Kumnick as just a "boastful show-off" and Weaver as even less involved. In June 1990, Byerly attempted to use the sawed-off shotgun charge as leverage to get Weaver to act as an informant for his investigation into the Aryan Nations.[12][page needed] It is clear that, after the gun sale occurred, ATF was not so much interested in prosecuting Weaver as in using its case against him as a carrot and stick to force him to become a government informant against those in political extremist groups, like the Aryan Nations, who may themselves have been engaged in significant criminal activity involving guns or explosives. When Weaver refused to become "a snitch", the ATF filed the gun charges in June 1990, also claiming Weaver was a bank robber with criminal convictions (those claims were false: at that time Weaver had no criminal record, and the subsequent Senate investigation found: "Weaver was not a suspect in any bank robberies."[12][page needed])

ETC, etc, etc

PurpleThrobber said:

I was wrong in that it was Bush's Feds, not Clintons.

I am old. The years run together

Good catch

They were pretty kooky, but everything I've read suggests the feds fucked up incredibly hard.

DHD said:

...The entire Aryan Nation movement...

They took the whole Aryan Nation

Stuck us on this reservation

Took away our ways of life

The hanging noose and 3rd Reich knife

tenndawg said:

DHD said:

...The entire Aryan Nation movement...

They took the whole Aryan Nation

Stuck us on this reservation

Took away our ways of life

The hanging noose and 3rd Reich knife

Took away our native tongue

And taught their political correctness to our young

TierbsHsotBoobs said:

dnc said:

Baphomet said:

It is all part of the Alt-right, kkk, neo-nazi, christian nation, aryan nation, militia movement, mythos.

The evil feds killed good white christian folks in Ruby Ridge.

The evil feds killed good white christian folks in Waco.

The evil feds framed Timothy McVeigh, a good white christian who just wanted revenge agains the evil feds for Ruby Ridge.

The evil feds are plotting to invite the UN in to destroy good fearing, white american christian culture.

We must trust Tump and embrace Russia. Because if you stop and think about it, they are white, just like us. And they hate fags as much as we do. What could be wrong with em?

I don't agree with any of those statements except the Ruby Ridge one (and I don't even agree that they were good folks, but I do agree they were killed unjustly). So, strawmen aside, what is the actual argument that the government didn't murder these people? Or should I just put you down for not having one?

You aren't part of the alt-Reich though.

Right, but that's my point. One side only cares about using the Weavers for their narrative. And the other side seems to only care about using the other side's narrative for their narrative. I'm actually interested in what happened in these things (same with police shootings), regardless whose politics the truth of the given scenario happens to benefit.