Talent Wins: The formula for winning championships isn’t complicated
Comments
-
Thanks Taft!
-
I remember when this board was a big believer in Five Stars.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:Thanks Taft!
-
I’m a 5 star thanked of Taft.creepycoug said:
I remember when this board was a big believer in Five Stars.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:Thanks Taft!
-
You are also an elite consumer of nachos.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:
I’m a 5 star thanked of Taft.creepycoug said:
I remember when this board was a big believer in Five Stars.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:Thanks Taft!
-
People who follow CFB knew this was the case. It's always been about the 4-5* Jimmy's and Joe's when it comes to winning it all.creepycoug said:
I remember when this board was a big believer in Five Stars.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:Thanks Taft!
-
That’s true.creepycoug said:
You are also an elite consumer of nachos.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:
I’m a 5 star thanked of Taft.creepycoug said:
I remember when this board was a big believer in Five Stars.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:Thanks Taft!
-
Exactly. Saban just pays kids at the top of a sorted spreadsheet made by neckbeard 247 admins and just rolls the ball out there. Same with Smart.46XiJCAB said:
People who follow CFB knew this was the case. It's always been about the 4-5* Jimmy's and Joe's when it comes to winning it all.creepycoug said:
I remember when this board was a big believer in Five Stars.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:Thanks Taft!
-
It's actually an interesting question or point to discuss. Saban was not Saban at Michigan State. And, no, I don't think he became a more brilliant coach somehow between then and LSU. At LSU, he had access to a different recruiting base than he did at State. Sure, he's a great coach. But is he some brilliant Xs and Os guy? His assistant coaching / coordinator position is a revolving door, with retards like Sark, Tosh, Kiffin taking a turn. Doens't seem to matter who's there does it?
I mean, please tell me how he's taking lower rated recruits and developing them. Come on. That is not what's happening at Georgia and Bama. -
Stacking elite (not good, not great, but elite) high school recruiting classes is the most important factor when it comes to competing for championships and establishing a championship program.
jimbo fisher is scratching his head at this. -
So why was Richt mediocre and Kirby wins back to back natties?
How does Jimbo just have one ring with all the talent he has had at two schools
Its not one or the other. Its both
James was pretty good with third pick after USC and UCLA
He was great with the super recruiting that built the 90-92 teams -
I didn't say he's taking lower rated recruits. At least not now.creepycoug said:It's actually an interesting question or point to discuss. Saban was not Saban at Michigan State. And, no, I don't think he became a more brilliant coach somehow between then and LSU. At LSU, he had access to a different recruiting base than he did at State. Sure, he's a great coach. But is he some brilliant Xs and Os guy? His assistant coaching / coordinator position is a revolving door, with retards like Sark, Tosh, Kiffin taking a turn. Doens't seem to matter who's there does it?
I mean, please tell me how he's taking lower rated recruits and developing them. Come on. That is not what's happening at Georgia and Bama.
But these kids are essentially being partitioned into 3 tiers. That's FS. It gets even more complicated now with transfer rules. It's FS to be A&M fan and think you're just going to be elite. Texas just looks at stars and measurables and has cycled through 3 staffs now.
Coaching and evaluation matter more than they ever have.
How Utah has been to two rose bowls. How Oregon State just runs 15 straights runs and then destroys Florida. -
I agree. I know you need coaching. My point is that the narrative to date, which seems to hold, is that a condition precedent to winning natties is a bevy of 4 stars and a sprinkling of 5 stars. You also need coaching, but that narrative has been coaching alone, with a bevy of 3 stars, won't get you over the Georgia/Bama hump.haie said:
I didn't say he's taking lower rated recruits. At least not now.creepycoug said:It's actually an interesting question or point to discuss. Saban was not Saban at Michigan State. And, no, I don't think he became a more brilliant coach somehow between then and LSU. At LSU, he had access to a different recruiting base than he did at State. Sure, he's a great coach. But is he some brilliant Xs and Os guy? His assistant coaching / coordinator position is a revolving door, with retards like Sark, Tosh, Kiffin taking a turn. Doens't seem to matter who's there does it?
I mean, please tell me how he's taking lower rated recruits and developing them. Come on. That is not what's happening at Georgia and Bama.
But these kids are essentially being partitioned into 3 tiers. That's FS. It gets even more complicated now with transfer rules. It's FS to be A&M fan and think you're just going to be elite. Texas just looks at stars and measurables and has cycled through 3 staffs now.
Coaching and evaluation matter more than they ever have.
How Utah has been to two rose bowls. How Oregon State just runs 15 straights runs and then destroys Florida.
I didn't write the narrative. This place did. -
Yes, this is what I posted to haie. Both. Not one, or the other. At least that's what I've been made to believe around here for years. And the TV doesn't lie either.RaceBannon said:So why was Richt mediocre and Kirby wins back to back natties?
How does Jimbo just have one ring with all the talent he has had at two schools
Its not one or the other. Its both
James was pretty good with third pick after USC and UCLA
He was great with the super recruiting that built the 90-92 teams
And in the case of Bama, I really think that if there's a lean one way or the other, it's the talent disparity. Saban runs a great program, obviously, which includes recruiting but also discipline, etc. But I don't think he's some kind of quantum leap-forward genius. Talk about brand, he walked into one of the, if not the, biggest brand in cfb which sits in the middle of the most fertile recruiting region in the country. Not easy, but not uphill either. He's the one who uses the boxing division analogy btw.
Richt was 11-7 in bowls and he was a 10+ win season guy 10 out of 18 seasons as a head coach, with a better winning % than the three guys before him at Georgia, which includes Dooley. I'd give him a mediocre++, or good, but not great, HC, because that win rate gets you lifetime employment at a lot of programs. Georgia fans expected to win titles (at the time on the basis of having done it once in the color TV era) and saw that he wasn't an "over the hump" guy. Two conference titles in 15 years at GA didn't get it done. -
The ten seasons before Saban arrived at Bamacreepycoug said:
Yes, this is what I posted to haie. Both. Not one, or the other. At least that's what I've been made to believe around here for years. And the TV doesn't lie either.RaceBannon said:So why was Richt mediocre and Kirby wins back to back natties?
How does Jimbo just have one ring with all the talent he has had at two schools
Its not one or the other. Its both
James was pretty good with third pick after USC and UCLA
He was great with the super recruiting that built the 90-92 teams
And in the case of Bama, I really think that if there's a lean one way or the other, it's the talent disparity. Saban runs a great program, obviously, which includes recruiting but also discipline, etc. But I don't think he's some kind of quantum leap-forward genius. Talk about brand, he walked into one of the, if not the, biggest brand in cfb which sits in the middle of the most fertile recruiting region in the country. Not easy, but not uphill either. He's the one who uses the boxing division analogy btw.
Richt was 11-7 in bowls and he was a 10+ win season guy 10 out of 18 seasons as a head coach, with a better winning % than the three guys before him at Georgia, which includes Dooley. I'd give him a mediocre++, or good, but not great, HC, because that win rate gets you lifetime employment at a lot of programs. Georgia fans expected to win titles (at the time on the basis of having done it once in the color TV era) and saw that he wasn't an "over the hump" guy. Two conference titles in 15 years at GA didn't get it done.
More loosing seasons than 10 win seasons.
Maybe the dudes before Saban were all just shitty recruiters who couldn't capitalize on the brand but that's hard to reconcile with Saban's 12-2 record in year two and 14-0 in year three.
The easier conclusion is that Nick is a far superior coach. -
Or a combination. Alabama, I don't think, was producing players then at the clip they've been under Saban. Meyer has been great wherever he's been. Saban was 34-24 at Sparty. Two 5th, two 6th and one tie for 2nd in conference. How'd he get so good at LSU?dnc said:
The ten seasons before Saban arrived at Bamacreepycoug said:
Yes, this is what I posted to haie. Both. Not one, or the other. At least that's what I've been made to believe around here for years. And the TV doesn't lie either.RaceBannon said:So why was Richt mediocre and Kirby wins back to back natties?
How does Jimbo just have one ring with all the talent he has had at two schools
Its not one or the other. Its both
James was pretty good with third pick after USC and UCLA
He was great with the super recruiting that built the 90-92 teams
And in the case of Bama, I really think that if there's a lean one way or the other, it's the talent disparity. Saban runs a great program, obviously, which includes recruiting but also discipline, etc. But I don't think he's some kind of quantum leap-forward genius. Talk about brand, he walked into one of the, if not the, biggest brand in cfb which sits in the middle of the most fertile recruiting region in the country. Not easy, but not uphill either. He's the one who uses the boxing division analogy btw.
Richt was 11-7 in bowls and he was a 10+ win season guy 10 out of 18 seasons as a head coach, with a better winning % than the three guys before him at Georgia, which includes Dooley. I'd give him a mediocre++, or good, but not great, HC, because that win rate gets you lifetime employment at a lot of programs. Georgia fans expected to win titles (at the time on the basis of having done it once in the color TV era) and saw that he wasn't an "over the hump" guy. Two conference titles in 15 years at GA didn't get it done.
More loosing seasons than 10 win seasons.
Maybe the dudes before Saban were all just shitty recruiters who couldn't capitalize on the brand but that's hard to reconcile with Saban's 12-2 record in year two and 14-0 in year three.
The easier conclusion is that Nick is a far superior coach. -
Saban brought a 6-6 MSU team to Autzen in 98' and got thumped by MB, 48-14. The next year, his last at MSU, he went 10-2. They had not had a winning season since 1990. His 6-6 teams upset #1 tOSU. He can obviously coach but it takes elite level recruiting to win NC's. He's proved it at LSU and Bama.creepycoug said:It's actually an interesting question or point to discuss. Saban was not Saban at Michigan State. And, no, I don't think he became a more brilliant coach somehow between then and LSU. At LSU, he had access to a different recruiting base than he did at State. Sure, he's a great coach. But is he some brilliant Xs and Os guy? His assistant coaching / coordinator position is a revolving door, with retards like Sark, Tosh, Kiffin taking a turn. Doens't seem to matter who's there does it?
I mean, please tell me how he's taking lower rated recruits and developing them. Come on. That is not what's happening at Georgia and Bama. -
You've obviously never read anything on how Saban approaches recruiting. You just poast really stupid shit like this. Smart learned from him so again just a really dumbass poast.haie said:
Exactly. Saban just pays kids at the top of a sorted spreadsheet made by neckbeard 247 admins and just rolls the ball out there. Same with Smart.46XiJCAB said:
People who follow CFB knew this was the case. It's always been about the 4-5* Jimmy's and Joe's when it comes to winning it all.creepycoug said:
I remember when this board was a big believer in Five Stars.CFetters_Nacho_Lover said:Thanks Taft!
-
There’s like half the schools in the SEC a coach of Saban or Smart’s stature could go into and make a juggernaut in the SEC. LSU, Bama, Florida, Tennessee, Georgia, auburn and a&m. They have talent close by and think & care. It’s amazing how bad the AD can mess it up though.
Growing up for me LSU was always a shitty program until Saban was there. They now have 3 coaches that have won natties since I was 21. Tennessee was in the top 10 a lot when I was growing up, they have been an under achieving enigma since the early 2000’s until this year.
TLDR
Certain schools have high levels of potential, only top tier coaches bring it out (and that one time Larry Coker, Ogeron and chizik won it) though. -
Mike Price’s Destiny record of 0-0 isn’t listed.dnc said:
The ten seasons before Saban arrived at Bamacreepycoug said:
Yes, this is what I posted to haie. Both. Not one, or the other. At least that's what I've been made to believe around here for years. And the TV doesn't lie either.RaceBannon said:So why was Richt mediocre and Kirby wins back to back natties?
How does Jimbo just have one ring with all the talent he has had at two schools
Its not one or the other. Its both
James was pretty good with third pick after USC and UCLA
He was great with the super recruiting that built the 90-92 teams
And in the case of Bama, I really think that if there's a lean one way or the other, it's the talent disparity. Saban runs a great program, obviously, which includes recruiting but also discipline, etc. But I don't think he's some kind of quantum leap-forward genius. Talk about brand, he walked into one of the, if not the, biggest brand in cfb which sits in the middle of the most fertile recruiting region in the country. Not easy, but not uphill either. He's the one who uses the boxing division analogy btw.
Richt was 11-7 in bowls and he was a 10+ win season guy 10 out of 18 seasons as a head coach, with a better winning % than the three guys before him at Georgia, which includes Dooley. I'd give him a mediocre++, or good, but not great, HC, because that win rate gets you lifetime employment at a lot of programs. Georgia fans expected to win titles (at the time on the basis of having done it once in the color TV era) and saw that he wasn't an "over the hump" guy. Two conference titles in 15 years at GA didn't get it done.
More loosing seasons than 10 win seasons.
Maybe the dudes before Saban were all just shitty recruiters who couldn't capitalize on the brand but that's hard to reconcile with Saban's 12-2 record in year two and 14-0 in year three.
The easier conclusion is that Nick is a far superior coach.
Anyone know how to edit Wikipedia? -
I think it is a combo of scheme (on both sides of the ball), recruiting, and leadership, with a healthy dose of resources (facilities, coaching $$ pool...etc), and AD support. That gives you the blueprint for the process, and the process is what wins.
Scheme and recruiting, w/o leadership (Sark) gets you average/good..."best play caller in America"...7(lol)-8 wins per season
Recruiting and leadership w/o scheme (Pete) gets you good...9-11 wins per season
Scheme and leadership without recruiting (Chip won't recruit, he just won't)...9-11. wins per
The elites know their weaknesses and hire accordingly. They are terrified of static, always looking for ways to improve, to shore up weakness, and that translates to their players, subordinates, and to their bosses, who accommodate them.
We saw this year that "good" can get you into a NCG (hi, Sonny!), and even that you can even win one (Ed O, Jimbo), but to sustain it, the machine must be in place, and a guy in charge that can drive it (Saban, Kirby, Urbs, Dabo)...
Most if not all P5 coaches have 2 of the 3, but the one missing factor, along with the sub-optimal resources piece, prevents them from getting over the top...How many times have "we" lamented that, "If we just had X's defense/offense paired with our offense/defense"?...
My 2 cents...
-
I agree with all that. Shitty coaches will give you shitty to middling results at schools even if they enjoy natural advantages. But there's also a limit to what you can do w/o the top flight raw material.AtomicDawg said:There’s like half the schools in the SEC a coach of Saban or Smart’s stature could go into and make a juggernaut in the SEC. LSU, Bama, Florida, Tennessee, Georgia, auburn and a&m. They have talent close by and think & care. It’s amazing how bad the AD can mess it up though.
Growing up for me LSU was always a shitty program until Saban was there. They now have 3 coaches that have won natties since I was 21. Tennessee was in the top 10 a lot when I was growing up, they have been an under achieving enigma since the early 2000’s until this year.
TLDR
Certain schools have high levels of potential, only top tier coaches bring it out (and that one time Larry Coker, Ogeron and chizik won it) though.
