Maybe Putin is fighting the deep state?

HoustonHusky said:

RatherBeBrewing said:

HoustonHusky said:

RatherBeBrewing said:

HoustonHusky said:

Putin is an Asperger’s case with little human emotion and that will do anything to help Russia.

The fallacy of the @hhusky morons of the world is that just because Putin is not a good guy it does not make anybody he is fighting magically good. Ukraine is a corrupt shithole that yes does have a subset that love them some Nazis and yes interfered heavily in the 2016 election. They picked the Dems in hopes of getting even more $$$ (laundered and real) and becoming part of NATO, and in doing so listened to Dems about poking the bear and from that destroyed their country and killed tens of thousands of their people.

Should be a lesson for the idiots of the world but they are too dumb to learn it.

I’m a pretty harsh critic of Ukraine, since independence they’ve shot themselves in the foot more often than Wile E. Coyote - but you’re also parroting half-truths or exaggerations that have come from the firehouse of misinformation.

Too pointless to look at everything, but the part about the Nazis I don’t get. First off all, what does that mean? How large do you think this subset is? Can someone explain this to me? Feel free to skip the bulk of it and go to the bold at the end.

All of Eastern Europe is right wing to some extent - I’ve been to all EE countries other than a few post Yugoslav ones and to say that Ukraine is more “Nazi-ish” than any of them is patently false. A falsehood that Russia ran with when Ukraine was having a revolution over their Kremlin backed president changing his guarantee to not join Russia’s “Customs Union” with Belarus and Kazakhstan that was mild USSR 2.0. There were a lot of Ukrainian nationalists, supporters of a guy named Stepan Bandera, too complicated to explain. And then the Azov battalion was praised and still exists prominently, since (shockingly) a neo-Nazi-ish paramilitary group was better prepared to fight off Russian soldiers than a derelict army that was looted by corrupt politicians and infiltrated by the Russians. They are a PR nightmare but the people in that region (Mariupol, Donetsk Oblast) made Azov into heroes after they were crucial in stopping the Russian onslaught of pillage and rape in 2014.

Ukrainians are mystified how the hell Americans are believing the Nazi stuff is of significance. Other than its the narrative the Kremlin force feeds their own people, and that like a 1000 guys joined by some Swedes and Americans in the shittiest part of an already shitty country have a very Neo Nazi flavor. Jewish president, Jewish prime minister, political freedom and freedom of speech that their neighbors have never had - overall a society that is much more free than it has ever been.

Meanwhile, Russia has a dictator going on his 23rd year in power with a managed cult of personality. Where he’s shut down the tiny bit of independent media he had left, promotes violent nationalism, has invaded multiple neighbors in hopes of protecting “people of his superior ethnicity” and violated multiple agreements along the way to right his perceived historical wrongs, has written historically inaccurate essays that are mandatory reading about the greatness of his people and the need to take over lesser nations. How is it that the narrative is “this Putin guy is clearly pretty evil, but I hear they have some Nazis in Ukraine so let’s keep that in mind” when Russia is trying as hard as it possibly can to be the Nazis? How does that make sense? Can someone tell me? I want to be able to explain the thought process if asked.

Half-truths? The Azov founder Andriy Biletsky railed as recently as 2010 of needing to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen"…that guy was in Parliament in Ukraine and had a political party. Azov admitted to up to 20% of their members being avowed Nazis. And they aren’t some separate organization…they were integrated into the military. You can type paragraphs trying to explain that away but it doesn’t change those simple facts. That’s absolutely insane in the modern world.

Ukraine is a corrupt shithole that a bunch of US politicians used to launder money and abused as a tool to try and go after Russia.

Zelensky may have started out with good intentions, but he (and his wife) was implicated in the Pandora Papers…he’s no angel. And just because he’s in bed now with Azov doesn’t mean he’s a Jewish nazi…just means he’s using them the same way US politicians have been using Ukraine.

Some Ukrainians like them some Nazis…organizations like Azov don’t exist if they didn’t.

Ukraine was knee-deep in corruption in the 2016 US election trying to get Hillary elected (the ironic part is that part of it…the fake Manafort black ledger…probably helped Trump win because it pushed Manafort out and brought on Conway).

And no, Putin isn’t a good guy…Russia is a corrupt shithole as well.

Why we are sending $$$ over there is insane, much less putting sanctions on while letting China skate on everything and then some (and pushing Russia to get in bed with China…). And the proposals of some of these crazies that want us to jump into basically WW3…

I tried to limit it to one topic of discourse, which was your statement of neo-Nazi subsets. A topic Russia loves to push everywhere, to distract from the more pertinent issue of them invading a sovereign nation eight years ago and now their third week of all out, total war that is killing thousands, displaced millions, and is having major ripples. But beside the point, let’s stick to the topic at hand, the one I asked about and you replied to before going off on tangents and elections.

We’re talking about Nazis from your original comment; that just because they’re fighting Putin doesn’t mean they’re the good guys, and one of the reasons you mention is a subset that loves Nazis. I am failing to follow your logic, but maybe you can explain it better for my slow witted self so I don’t wind up thinking that you’re mitigating war crimes and invasions because of one small and statistically insignificant group of extremists.

I’ll also add that when Russians like Putin say Nazis it’s not so much fascism that they mean - it’s people who don’t like Russia. In post WWII Soviet propaganda posters everyone is a Nazi or the Monopoly Man. Or a Slavic worker/farmer with chiseled jaws and abs, in a slightly homoerotic way.

I care about that Nazi topic, so forgive me for being a little passionate about that. I grew up with Nazi horror stories like every kid in the USSR, checked under my bed for them. Kids here had Goodnight Moon, I had Guten Nacht Fritz. Here is a picture, mid-1950s. My grandparents with my great-grandfather, Dr. Solomon Kon. No relation to Jen, of the Montlake Cohens, at least not for a long time. Hopefully.


My great-grandmother is the one taking the picture. In 1939 she and my great-grandfather had a combined 12 siblings, three parents, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, etc. This picture is missing his sister Ester, who lived in Bucharest, Romania by then. That is all, everyone else ceased to exist. I can tell you in great detail about Nazis. My great-grandmother only passed away 18 years ago, she raised me as much as my parents and she spared no details. The two of them spent the war in the Red Army, 1941-45. In 1943 he was amputating legs at the Battle of Stalingrad, in 1945 in the German heartland. I doubt anyone here knows who Feliks Kon is, that was his uncle and that’s the way my family was able to escape Stalin’s purges and then only to have Nazis take them out. Feel free to Wikipedia, not particularly proud but whatcha gonna do you can’t pick your ancestors.

Keep defending Putin, which what this does in the form of whataboutism. I would rather that all Nazis not exist, but I think that I have more knowledge on the subject matter and I consider the narrative you’re peddling to be more of a Chekhov pistol or an outright Russian distraction than anything that deserves more than a cursory glance.

Andriy Biletsky served one term in Ukraine’s parliament, where he got elected with 32% of the vote in his district - in the midst of his publicity as a war hero. 1/450 Seats. He lost his seat in the very next election, and his party had to combine with two larger and less radical ones (Svoboda and Right Sector) and guess how powerful the three combined parties are? They received two percent of the vote, combined. He is politically irrelevant. As for the Azov battalion, they were initially funded by Ihor Kolomoisky - who is the co-founder of the European Jewish Union amongst other things. They’ve since been absorbed into the national guard, and to my knowledge one of the elite units in it. Because giving them government oversight seems better than an armed militia with their views. A party of 10,000-15,000 people in a nation with 40 million is a subset, but is it significant enough to waste much thought on when there are 18 divisions of soldiers invading?

Anyway, that was a really long way of telling you that you’re what Russian government considers to be a “polezniy idiot” and while idiot has the same meaning as in English, look on the bright side - polezniy means useful!

Lotta words to rationalize away Modern day Nazi sympathizers in Ukraine. Esp love how the Ukrainian Govt deleted its racist post and YouTube edited out the rather frightening Nazi rant from the Ukrainian newscast…yes newscast.

World is gray. When the Crypts and Bloods fight I don’t pretend one group is good and one is evil…I don’t involve myself in who wins…I definitely don’t send money or arms to one side to keep the fighting going…and definitely don’t send friends and relatives over to participate. Doesn’t mean I think individuals in Ukraine or Russia are horrible people…there are good and bad people in both. And generally horrible folks leading them both.

The war is over… the US is just using Ukraine as cannon fodder to try and hurt Russia…it’s truly awful IMHO. Ukraine is losing an Eastern chunk (which they hated and were bombing anyway) and will never join NATO. The only one who doesn’t seem to realize the endgame yet is Zelensky. Or maybe he does and he is doing the West’s bidding over his own people’s. I honestly don’t know.

I do know all the money laundering Ukraine did for the Biden’s, Romney’s, Pelosi’s, McCains and other politically corrupt families…unfortunately all it got them was death and destruction. And the sad part is they likely didn’t learn anything from this…the “West” will come in and rebuilt Western Ukraine, and that same crew will come in and steal/bleed those new funds dry. Hell…even the Clinton Foundation is gearing up again…they know a good grift when they see one.

PurpleThrobber said:

RatherBeBrewing said:

In this thread: people who don’t fully understand a topic are told more about it by someone who knows it better due to circumstance, both practical and academical.

I explained the truth of the matter in case anyone wanted to know. Evidential, logical, with reason. It makes no difference for me personally on what you choose to believe, but it makes a difference for me to know I’ve shared information that deserves to be shared.

Bruh - there is no question your family suffered in Ukraine.

Putin is a bad guy doing bad things.

That doesn't change the fact corruption is a way of life in Ukraine. They launder for Pelosi, Mitt, Hunter, Cho. They are a bio testing playground.

All of the above can be true. In fact, they are. It is a not a binary equation.


Some of us aren't buying the shit being fed to us. Both sides are feeding shit and some morsels of truth. Sorry.