Big Day for you today O'Keefed...
Comments
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I get it you can sit here and say what you want about technique until you're getting punched in the face. The fact is the suspect never assaulted any of these officers. The officers instigated a physical confrontation that went outside the realm of their control. They should be training techniques EVERY DAY and handle the control of a resisting human being objectively rather than a hail mary choke hold. Its bad for their brand otherwise.
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Why were they arresting him?Gwad said:I just watched the video. The officers are actually arguing with the subject about whether he did something wrong or not. Talk about being a limp dick police officer, can't even control the dialogue.
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Well the video I am looking at the officers are exhibiting poor body language. Lack of eye contact, arms crossed or in their pockets and the excited suspect is asking what he did. I don't see any de-escalation techniques being administered. They just seem kind of autistic. Having trouble finding the whole original video though.SFGbob said:
Why were they arresting him?Gwad said:I just watched the video. The officers are actually arguing with the subject about whether he did something wrong or not. Talk about being a limp dick police officer, can't even control the dialogue.
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I can see you've never had to control anyone. You are required by law to submit to arrest. How is it the cops fault he resists? How is it their fault he had a heart attack later? He was hugely obese and obviously not in good health. No it was not the fault of police and the police were not prosecuted for any wrong doing.Gwad said:I get it you can sit here and say what you want about technique until you're getting punched in the face. The fact is the suspect never assaulted any of these officers. The officers instigated a physical confrontation that went outside the realm of their control. They should be training techniques EVERY DAY and handle the control of a resisting human being objectively rather than a hail mary choke hold. Its bad for their brand otherwise.
But keep trying to hold your internet trials after this case went through massive scrutiny and was found to not be improper and without any charges filed against the officers. -
He was being placed under arrest. He was resisting arrest. If you don't want bad things to happen to you don't resist arrest. Assume that all cops are going have "poor body language" and crossed arms and do what the fuck the police are asking you to do. If the police are asking you to do something illegal or immoral that's something you can address later downtown, But when you're being placed under arrest is not the time to play street lawyer.Gwad said:
Well the video I am looking at the officers are exhibiting poor body language. Lack of eye contact, arms crossed or in their pockets and the excited suspect is asking what he did. I don't see any de-escalation techniques being administered. They just seem kind of autistic. Having trouble finding the whole original video though.SFGbob said:
Why were they arresting him?Gwad said:I just watched the video. The officers are actually arguing with the subject about whether he did something wrong or not. Talk about being a limp dick police officer, can't even control the dialogue.
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I practice controlling people on a semi regular basis and its tough especially when they have training to minimize your control and increase theirs. I'm not subscribing to any sort of legal consequence either way. In the context of being a COP though and based on the video evidence of this physical confrontation it was a pretty piss poor showing of how these guys were trained.Sledog said:
I can see you've never had to control anyone. You are required by law to submit to arrest. How is it the cops fault he resists? How is it their fault he had a heart attack later? He was hugely obese and obviously not in good health. No it was not the fault of police and the police were not prosecuted for any wrong doing.Gwad said:I get it you can sit here and say what you want about technique until you're getting punched in the face. The fact is the suspect never assaulted any of these officers. The officers instigated a physical confrontation that went outside the realm of their control. They should be training techniques EVERY DAY and handle the control of a resisting human being objectively rather than a hail mary choke hold. Its bad for their brand otherwise.
But keep trying to hold your internet trials after this case went through massive scrutiny and was found to not be improper and without any charges filed against the officers. -
Dumb. Your job is to be a professional cop. If you're always blaming the perp on the outcomes than it creates a cognitive bias that diminishes your ability to become better at your job.SFGbob said:
He was being placed under arrest. He was resisting arrest. If you don't want bad things to happen to you don't resist arrest. Assume that all cops are going have "poor body language" and crossed arms and do what the fuck the police are asking you to do. If the police are asking you to do something illegal or immoral that's something you can address later downtown, But when you're being placed under arrest is not the time to play street lawyer.Gwad said:
Well the video I am looking at the officers are exhibiting poor body language. Lack of eye contact, arms crossed or in their pockets and the excited suspect is asking what he did. I don't see any de-escalation techniques being administered. They just seem kind of autistic. Having trouble finding the whole original video though.SFGbob said:
Why were they arresting him?Gwad said:I just watched the video. The officers are actually arguing with the subject about whether he did something wrong or not. Talk about being a limp dick police officer, can't even control the dialogue.
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I completely agree. And don't hold to me to the details, because it's been a while. But wasn't the victim a neighborhood kid, they knew where he lived, he was always around, he was enormous so he wasn't going to run and hide very well, etc. etc.??SFGbob said:
Blame Mayor Bloomberg. He is the one who wanted the selling of "loosies" clamped down on. Bad things can happen when you resist arrest.creepycoug said:
Or that poor bastard they choked for selling cigarettes without a license.SFGbob said:
Completely agree. The Walter Scott shooting would have made a lot better case.creepycoug said:I've always said that it was a curiously terrible choice of police incidents on which to make this political stand. Just terrible.
There are invariably so many others from which to choose. This wasn't it.
There are bad cops who abuse theIt authority. My classmates who went the prosecutor route will tell you the same thing, because those cops tend to make their jobs harder. And that's in Seattle, which has a Mickey Mouse violent crime problem compared to many US cities.
At some point, if you're a good cop, I think you let that kid go and you follow him and you keep working to try and do it right. I'm not a second guesser by nature, but that one always bugged me. Completely agree that resisting arrest is a very, very bad idea, no matter how fucked you think the arrest is. Sort it out later.
But as I recall there were three or more cops taking this kid down where they busted him and one had him in a choke hold, and he told them over and over again he couldn't breathe.
Reminds me of what happened to Anthony Vontoure. -
Then what happened?Sledog said:
They did not choke him to death. Holy shit.......creepycoug said:
Or that poor bastard they choked for selling cigarettes without a license.SFGbob said:
Completely agree. The Walter Scott shooting would have made a lot better case.creepycoug said:I've always said that it was a curiously terrible choice of police incidents on which to make this political stand. Just terrible.
There are invariably so many others from which to choose. This wasn't it.
There are bad cops who abuse theIt authority. My classmates who went the prosecutor route will tell you the same thing, because those cops tend to make their jobs harder. And that's in Seattle, which has a Mickey Mouse violent crime problem compared to many US cities. -
First of all I'm not always blaming the perp. And the job of the bus driver is to always stop at the red light. Now I can be a child and stamp my feet and say you were supposed to stop at the red light Mr. Bus driver after I blindly walk out into traffic not bothering to even look if the on coming traffic has slowed down, while foolishly relying on it's the job of the bus driver to stop. Or I can use a little common sense and look both ways before crossing and not assume that all bus drivers are always going to do their job properly.
You must live in some kind of special world where people aren't humans prone to the errors and mistakes and bad judgment and all the other human flaws that are out there.
Yes, the cops should have acted professionally, and he shouldn't have resisted arrest. Which part of that equation did Eric Garner have control over? -
Does anyone care about your fuctarded opinion? Didnt think so.Gwad said:SFGbob grateful to be alive with an undeniable love for himself and those around him. That is why he is spending his morning putting mental energy into a five year old event he was not present for.
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Sledog said:
Really? control a 500lb guy. Please post the video we'll see how you do. Having used and seen a carotid restraint used many times and had it applied to myself I can report everyone lived and no injuries. He could breathe just fine or he wouldn't be yelling "I can't breathe".Gwad said:
I'm a police officer no one will ever resist me!! I shouldn't have to train how to easily control a resisting human being!!Sledog said:
No mention of criminal resistance. Illegal even if it was an unlawful arrest. That's where the blame lies.Gwad said:
No mention of the officers poor ability to be in control of physical confrontations?SFGbob said:
Blame Mayor Bloomberg. He is the one who wanted the selling of "loosies" clamped down on. Bad things can happen when you resist arrest.creepycoug said:
Or that poor bastard they choked for selling cigarettes without a license.SFGbob said:
Completely agree. The Walter Scott shooting would have made a lot better case.creepycoug said:I've always said that it was a curiously terrible choice of police incidents on which to make this political stand. Just terrible.
There are invariably so many others from which to choose. This wasn't it.
There are bad cops who abuse theIt authority. My classmates who went the prosecutor route will tell you the same thing, because those cops tend to make their jobs harder. And that's in Seattle, which has a Mickey Mouse violent crime problem compared to many US cities.
Yeah, I think it can be a little more complicated than that Dr. Marcus Welby.Sledog said:
Really? control a 500lb guy. Please post the video we'll see how you do. Having used and seen a carotid restraint used many times and had it applied to myself I can report everyone lived and no injuries. He could breathe just fine or he wouldn't be yelling "I can't breathe".Gwad said:
I'm a police officer no one will ever resist me!! I shouldn't have to train how to easily control a resisting human being!!Sledog said:
No mention of criminal resistance. Illegal even if it was an unlawful arrest. That's where the blame lies.Gwad said:
No mention of the officers poor ability to be in control of physical confrontations?SFGbob said:
Blame Mayor Bloomberg. He is the one who wanted the selling of "loosies" clamped down on. Bad things can happen when you resist arrest.creepycoug said:
Or that poor bastard they choked for selling cigarettes without a license.SFGbob said:
Completely agree. The Walter Scott shooting would have made a lot better case.creepycoug said:I've always said that it was a curiously terrible choice of police incidents on which to make this political stand. Just terrible.
There are invariably so many others from which to choose. This wasn't it.
There are bad cops who abuse theIt authority. My classmates who went the prosecutor route will tell you the same thing, because those cops tend to make their jobs harder. And that's in Seattle, which has a Mickey Mouse violent crime problem compared to many US cities.
I've seen a kid suffer an accute asthma attack in connection with anaphylaxis. It ain't pretty, but they can talk to a degree. It doesn't mean they won't die if they don't get help asap.
I respect the police, but I maintain an healthy level of skepticism about them because of where they sit in the government hierarchy. I think everybody should.
They should have exercised better judgment. Maybe it was the Mayor's fault for issuing the edict, but insisting on physically apprehending somebody, at that very moment, over that kind of shit was probably the first mistake.
But, statist gonna statist I suppose. -
If you're really a police officer then you should be outed and fired for the POS you are.Gwad said:
I'm a police officer no one will ever resist me!! I shouldn't have to train how to easily control a resisting human being!!Sledog said:
No mention of criminal resistance. Illegal even if it was an unlawful arrest. That's where the blame lies.Gwad said:
No mention of the officers poor ability to be in control of physical confrontations?SFGbob said:
Blame Mayor Bloomberg. He is the one who wanted the selling of "loosies" clamped down on. Bad things can happen when you resist arrest.creepycoug said:
Or that poor bastard they choked for selling cigarettes without a license.SFGbob said:
Completely agree. The Walter Scott shooting would have made a lot better case.creepycoug said:I've always said that it was a curiously terrible choice of police incidents on which to make this political stand. Just terrible.
There are invariably so many others from which to choose. This wasn't it.
There are bad cops who abuse theIt authority. My classmates who went the prosecutor route will tell you the same thing, because those cops tend to make their jobs harder. And that's in Seattle, which has a Mickey Mouse violent crime problem compared to many US cities. -
First of all, he wasn't a kid he was 43. He'd been arrested more than 30 times by the NYPD since 1980 for all kinds of other crimes. Once the cops put their hands on you and tell you that they are taking you in and you resist by pulling your arms away things are going to go badly for you, and to expect all cops to be well versed in conflict resolution and confrontation de-escalation is pretty fucking dumb.
It wasn't like he didn't know how to behave while being arrested. -
I totally agree with that line of reasoning. But Garner was a dumbshit. We know that. I just don't think the context of that arrest should have escalated to that point. Garner put himself in harm's way. I don't disagree at all.SFGbob said:First of all I'm not always blaming the perp. And the job of the bus driver is to always stop at the red light. Now I can be a child and stamp my feet and say you were supposed to stop at the red light Mr. Bus driver after I blindly walk out into traffic not bothering to even look if the on coming traffic has slowed down, while foolishly relying on it's the job of the bus driver to stop. Or I can use a little common sense and look both ways before crossing and not assume that all bus drivers are always going to do their job properly.
You must live in some kind of special world where people aren't humans prone to the errors and mistakes and bad judgment and all the other human flaws that are out there.
Yes, the cops should have acted professionally, and he shouldn't have resisted arrest. Which part of that equation did Eric Garner have control over?
But ideally the Cops are not "harm's way." They use better judgment. I can almost guarantee if I'd been in that position I'd have at least asked myself once, "why in the fuck again are we trying to wrestle down this 500 lb. son of a bitch?" -
He died of a heart attack later at the hospital. By the way if you are in a carotid restraint properly applied you can breathe. He was yelling so we know he was breathing. The technique is to restrict the carotid artery to cause unconsciousness that usually only lasts a few seconds. If it were improperly applied it would crush his airway and he wouldn't be able to breathe or call out.creepycoug said:
Then what happened?Sledog said:
They did not choke him to death. Holy shit.......creepycoug said:
Or that poor bastard they choked for selling cigarettes without a license.SFGbob said:
Completely agree. The Walter Scott shooting would have made a lot better case.creepycoug said:I've always said that it was a curiously terrible choice of police incidents on which to make this political stand. Just terrible.
There are invariably so many others from which to choose. This wasn't it.
There are bad cops who abuse theIt authority. My classmates who went the prosecutor route will tell you the same thing, because those cops tend to make their jobs harder. And that's in Seattle, which has a Mickey Mouse violent crime problem compared to many US cities. -
Uh, because he was resisting arrest? Should cops just let anyone go who is resisting arrest? If the state wants to enforce the prohibition of illegal cigarette sales then you can't have people thinking they can just ignore the people enforcing the laws you voted for.
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Ideally all kinds of bad shit that happens shouldn't happen. I can only be responsible for my own behavior and my own actions. Yes it's the bus driver's job to stop, but you're still going to be dead when he runs you over.creepycoug said:
I totally agree with that line of reasoning. But Garner was a dumbshit. We know that. I just don't think the context of that arrest should have escalated to that point. Garner put himself in harm's way. I don't disagree at all.SFGbob said:First of all I'm not always blaming the perp. And the job of the bus driver is to always stop at the red light. Now I can be a child and stamp my feet and say you were supposed to stop at the red light Mr. Bus driver after I blindly walk out into traffic not bothering to even look if the on coming traffic has slowed down, while foolishly relying on it's the job of the bus driver to stop. Or I can use a little common sense and look both ways before crossing and not assume that all bus drivers are always going to do their job properly.
You must live in some kind of special world where people aren't humans prone to the errors and mistakes and bad judgment and all the other human flaws that are out there.
Yes, the cops should have acted professionally, and he shouldn't have resisted arrest. Which part of that equation did Eric Garner have control over?
But ideally the Cops are not "harm's way." They use better judgment. I can almost guarantee if I'd been in that position I'd have at least asked myself once, "why in the fuck again are we trying to wrestle down this 500 lb. son of a bitch?" -
Shouldn't have happened. Bottom line. Cops are afforded judgement in the field, and use it all the time. They used it poorly in this case. I'm sure if you had some neer-do-well uncle in the same circumstances you wouldn't have such a clean "well those are the rules" point of view.WestlinnDuck said:Uh, because he was resisting arrest? Should cops just let anyone go who is resisting arrest? If the state wants to enforce the prohibition of illegal cigarette sales then you can't have people thinking they can just ignore the people enforcing the laws you voted for.
That's the state exercising in-personam jurisdiction - the most aggressive government reach - over violation of some stupid city ordinance. Cops walk away from less than that all the time just to make coffee hour at the donut shop.
I've got an ex-cop reading to me out of the field manual and I've got a guy saying he can't breathe dying shortly thereafter. I have a sneaking suspicion that the day's events precipitated his death.
I don't want to hang the cop responsible but JFC I think we can all agree this didn't turn out well.
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Agree. It's the price one pays for being a dumb shit.SFGbob said:
Ideally all kinds of bad shit that happens shouldn't happen. I can only be responsible for my own behavior and my own actions. Yes it's the bus driver's job to stop, but you're still going to be dead when he runs you over.creepycoug said:
I totally agree with that line of reasoning. But Garner was a dumbshit. We know that. I just don't think the context of that arrest should have escalated to that point. Garner put himself in harm's way. I don't disagree at all.SFGbob said:First of all I'm not always blaming the perp. And the job of the bus driver is to always stop at the red light. Now I can be a child and stamp my feet and say you were supposed to stop at the red light Mr. Bus driver after I blindly walk out into traffic not bothering to even look if the on coming traffic has slowed down, while foolishly relying on it's the job of the bus driver to stop. Or I can use a little common sense and look both ways before crossing and not assume that all bus drivers are always going to do their job properly.
You must live in some kind of special world where people aren't humans prone to the errors and mistakes and bad judgment and all the other human flaws that are out there.
Yes, the cops should have acted professionally, and he shouldn't have resisted arrest. Which part of that equation did Eric Garner have control over?
But ideally the Cops are not "harm's way." They use better judgment. I can almost guarantee if I'd been in that position I'd have at least asked myself once, "why in the fuck again are we trying to wrestle down this 500 lb. son of a bitch?"
Still, I think of the cops and bad bus drivers very differently because of the place they occupy in society. The standard of care for a Cop should be higher because of the power they wield.
I wasn't there so naturally I have to quality the shit out of my opinion; but those facts never looked very good to me.
I think - I don't know - that I would have laid off and given the guy a chance to recover himself. He wasn't going anywhere they couldn't have followed him on foot, and probably without having to break a fast walk to do so. -
*qualify
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I think he died from the excitement of the altercation and the contributing factors of his health and the choke hold. I don't think the choke hold was the defining factor in his death though (his wind pipe was fine).creepycoug said:
Then what happened?Sledog said:
They did not choke him to death. Holy shit.......creepycoug said:
Or that poor bastard they choked for selling cigarettes without a license.SFGbob said:
Completely agree. The Walter Scott shooting would have made a lot better case.creepycoug said:I've always said that it was a curiously terrible choice of police incidents on which to make this political stand. Just terrible.
There are invariably so many others from which to choose. This wasn't it.
There are bad cops who abuse theIt authority. My classmates who went the prosecutor route will tell you the same thing, because those cops tend to make their jobs harder. And that's in Seattle, which has a Mickey Mouse violent crime problem compared to many US cities.
