Basketball ended when Michael Jordan stopped playing.

Mosster47 said:

Jordan was The Beatles of basketball. It doesn't matter if Lebron doubles Jordan's stats and wins ten championships. No one will ever be a Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, or Tiger Woods ever again.

Well, first of all that's incredibly short sighted. It's the kind of thinking that Tequilla has used to claim that Lebron isn't as good as Bird. I'm sure they don't make music as good as what you listened to growing up as well. Unfortunately for you though no one in this thread is saying he will be. So who are you arguing against?

Tequilla, I missed a few points from your fucktarded post. The Bastard Sonics were too young to know how to win? That's why they beat the Spurs in the conference finals to get to the finals. You were right about one thing. Miami won because they were better.

It's true they wouldn't have beaten the Spurs without Ray Allen, but how did they get to that point? I seem to remember LeBron losing his headband and taking the game over to lead a Heat comeback from double digits.

This is from espn.com: MVP: LeBron James was slow to start, going 3-for-12 in the first three quarters. However, he exploded in the fourth, scoring 16 points sans his trademark headband. He finished with 32 points, 10 boards and 11 assists, becoming the first since Charles Barkley in '93 to put up a 30-point, 10-rebound, 10-assist game in the Finals.

I don't really like LeBron and have never rooted harder for a non Seattle team than I did for the Mavericks when they beat the Heat in the finals, but you couldn't be more wrong about LeBron. Larry Bird is a great player and a true legend, but LeBron is better. APAG had it right. Wake up!

@ Road Dawg

One of the fundamental challenges in your argument is comparing the players that players played with in the 1980s versus the players that they are playing with today.

In the 1980s, there were 23 teams in the league. Today, there are 30 teams.

Generally speaking today, I would say that you need to have 2 of the top 20 players in the NBA. With LBJ, Wade, and Bosh on the same team.

We all like to think about how great Parish and McHale were, but most forget that McHale didn't become a full-time starter until the 1985-1986 season. Not saying he wasn't a significant contributor at the time, but in 1985, Kevin McHale wasn't Kevin McHale. And when comparing back to Bird, 2 of his 3 titles were during this time period. I love Robert Parish ... he was a very, very solid big. But there were a lot of good/great bigs during that time period. For instance, if you look at Bill Cartwright's stats during the early part of his career before injuries and compare to Parish's, there isn't a significant difference. Is part of the reason that we have a fondness for Parish compared to some of the other bigs of the era simply tied to the fact that Parish won titles and others didn't?

If you want to really attach a player to Larry Bird and point to his ability to win titles, point to Dennis Johnson. It was the Celtics acquisition of Johnson and his ability to guard Andrew Toney and Magic that really gave the Celtics the chance to win the '84 and '86 titles.

Quickly moving to LBJ and his shooting %, I'll give him all the credit in the world for the fact that he's right up there for most unique genetic player to ever play the game with Wilt. He's too fast for most people his height and too strong for the players that are quick enough to guard him. He SHOULD shoot a high % given that he can pretty much get to the basket whenever he wants. He's a good, but not great shooter. His improvement in 3's to me is as much about shot selection as it is anything else. You will never convince me that a guy who has never shot higher than 78% from the line is a great shooter. Good shooter. Not great shooter.

Also, as a slight aside, two additional mistaken points regarding LBJ and Bird that should be pointed out. First, LBJ's career usage rate is 31.6% ... Bird's career usage rate is 26.5%. Only once in his career ('87-'88 season when the Celtics were on their last legs with their core group as a serious title contender) did Bird ever have a usage rate of over 30% (30.2% - also arguably his greatest statistical season of 29.9/9.3/6.1). LBJ has had a usage rate over 30% for 8 straight years (and is just under 30 for this season). Second, for those stat geeks that like win shares, Bird led the league in defensive win shares 4x in his career. LBJ hasn't done that. Moreover, if you want to look at steals and blocks as a measure of defensive ability, both have averaged about 1.7 steals per game and just under a block per game. I'd definitely say that LBJ is a superior on-ball defender given his athletic gifts. But the thought that Bird wasn't a good defender, particularly as a help defender, is really just a fallacy.

Regarding the Bastard Sonics, they are a TERRIBLE matchup for the Spurs then and now. It's the one team in the West that I don't think that the Spurs can beat in a 7 game series if both sides have their pieces. Not saying that others can't beat the Spurs, but I also think that the Spurs would be favorites against everybody else in the West. Matchups matter in the NBA.

Finally, Game 6 in last season's Finals is the kind of game that will be showing up on TV for years. It was one of the great games in Finals history. James had a GREAT 4th quarter to give the Heat a chance at winning. However, his effort wasn't going to be enough if the Spurs would have closed out the game (as they should have at the line) or if they would have grabbed a rebound. In an example of where I think stats can sometimes be misleading, I thought that LBJ played a far better game in Game 7 than he did in Game 6.