PM to HH history experts, YellowSnow, BearsWiin, AZDuck, Tommy etc
Too long to poast
Comments
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Neither "side." It was one character.
Your characterization of "side" is Identity Politics 101, and therein lies the problem. -
Chinteresting piece. Will add my thoughts shortly.
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YellowSnow said:
Chinteresting piece. Will add my thoughts shortly.
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Nutpicking, IMO.
Lee was a complicated character. Seems like the author just wanted to magnify all of the worst aspects of his character and personality. Everything he said is probably true, and fits some of the other things which we know about General Lee.
Feels more like propaganda than anything else. Shocking news of the week: people treated their slaves like shit. No kidding. -
Fucking whiny bitch author lives in New York City - hates the SEC and ACC...dnc said:Is the truth on the ole general closer to the "kindly Lee" narrative or this article?
Too long to poast
Probably got a smoothie under the table hand job from the maitre de at Club Cry Fag after publication
Totally unreliable biased garbage
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Full disclaimer: I haven't read any biographies of Lee, so I'm not as familiar with personal views / treatment of slaves as I am, say, with Jefferson or Washington. The arguments he makes about Lee's views on slavery seem accurate- i.e., "it's bad, but hey what can we do about it?" make him pretty similar to Jefferson and Washington in this regard. That he was unquestionably one of the greatest tactical generals we? ever produced as a nation is w/o question, even when had no choice but they take huge gambles that sometimes didn't pay off- e.g., Pickett's Charge. So how we do remember such a brilliant military mind even when he chose the wrong side?
In my mind, the greatest thing Lee ever did for this country was to surrender to Grant once he knew the cause was 100% lost and tell his men to go home. A lot of the Rebs had actually wanted to continue the fight and have the army disappear in the countryside and fight a gorilla war. This would have been a clusterfuck of epic proportions. Recommended reading on this subject in case anyone's interested: https://www.amazon.com/April-1865-Month-Saved-America/dp/0060899689 -
While I hardly consider myself an expert, I studied history in college and love reading about the Civil War, so I'll throw in my two cents:
Both the article and the "kindly Lee" narrative have truth to them. As @AZDuck mentioned, the man, like most people, said and did contradictory things. He'd write letters to wife saying that the institution of slavery was immoral (the text is quoted in the article), but like Jefferson, did his best to justify to himself that it was a necessary evil. (Jefferson once famously said of slavery, "But, as it is, we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.") Considering both men's economic survival was tied up in it, that's to be expected.
The author also cites the example of when General Grant proposed prisoner exchanges (but only if black soldiers were treated the same as their white counterparts), Lee shot it down saying, "negroes belonging to our citizens are not considered subjects of exchange and were not included in my proposition.” If you pair that with the fact during Lee's campaign in Pennsylvania he would capture free blacks and force them into service doesn't paint him in a flattering light. However, he would later on (when the South was losing mind you), be open to allowing black soldiers.
I could go on, but I don't want to get into TL:DR territory.
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I want to make sure, unlike most HH posters, that what I say is correct, not make a quick statement. The statement I made on Saturday, the first statement, was a fine statement, but you don't make statements that direct unless you know the facts. It takes a little while to get the facts. You still don't know the facts. It is a very, very important process to me. It is a very important statement. So I don't want to go quickly and just make a statement for the sake of making a political statement. I want to know the facts.
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Ken Burns basically wrote a love letter to him in video form
But since I wasn't asked - fuck off. -
Too easy to axe you, you were there.RaceBannon said:Ken Burns basically wrote a love letter to him in video form
But since I wasn't asked - fuck off.
I wanted to see what these learned men were taught in their fine institutions. -
OMG I don't care
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You are not a history expert, rather, a primary source.RaceBannon said:Ken Burns basically wrote a love letter to him in video form
But since I wasn't asked - fuck off.
http://hardcorehusky.com/news/privatebrowning
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I forgot I wrote that
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I thought that Private Browning letter, along with the comic of Sark dancing on the bar at the Dutchess, was one of your best non-Duck Fighter Illustrated works.RaceBannon said:I forgot I wrote that
And yes, the Kens Burns series, while I wouldn't say is love letter, definitely paints Lee as a bit of tragic hero (then again, you could tell in his interviews Shelby Foote had a full on man-crush on the general )...which he was in a way. He had fought for the United States Army for many years, and until his state left the Union, was deeply devoted to it. I'm not saying he made the right decision, but when I try to put myself in his shoes, I can't imagine how difficult it must've been to chose between your home state and the country you had served for so long. Then again, there were Southerners who opted to stay loyal (Sam Houston being the most high profile one I can think of - and like Lee he was a slave holder).
@YellowSnow thank you for bringing up how Nebraska-classy Lee was when he surrendered. That's where I think the "kindly Lee" reputation is earned. Right or wrong, he was probably the voice most Confederates would listen to ('cause let's face it, it wasn't Jefferson Davis), so he definitely could've dragged out the war if he had wished. -
Heinrich Himmler betrayed Hitler and tried to save lives by approaching the Catholic Church to broker a peace deal and end the war which if successful would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. In November 1944 he ordered the extermination of Jews to cease which his subordinates ignored.
I might be mistaken but I don't believe anyone nominated Himmler for the Nobel Peace Prize. -
Might have been the SS Death Castle he built.Baseman said:Heinrich Himmler betrayed Hitler and tried to save lives by approaching the Catholic Church to broker a peace deal and end the war which if successful would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. In November 1944 he ordered the extermination of Jews to cease which his subordinates ignored.
I might be mistaken but I don't believe anyone nominated Himmler for the Nobel Peace Prize. -
He created when Hitler ordered the Fatherland destroyed.WilburHooksHands said:
Might have been the SS Death Castle he built.Baseman said:Heinrich Himmler betrayed Hitler and tried to save lives by approaching the Catholic Church to broker a peace deal and end the war which if successful would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. In November 1944 he ordered the extermination of Jews to cease which his subordinates ignored.
I might be mistaken but I don't believe anyone nominated Himmler for the Nobel Peace Prize. -
Doog_de_Jour said:
I thought that Private Browning letter, along with the comic of Sark dancing on the bar at the Dutchess, was one of your best non-Duck Fighter Illustrated works.RaceBannon said:I forgot I wrote that
And yes, the Kens Burns series, while I wouldn't say is love letter, definitely paints Lee as a bit of tragic hero (then again, you could tell in his interviews Shelby Foote had a full on man-crush on the general )...which he was in a way. He had fought for the United States Army for many years, and until his state left the Union, was deeply devoted to it. I'm not saying he made the right decision, but when I try to put myself in his shoes, I can't imagine how difficult it must've been to chose between your home state and the country you had served for so long. Then again, there were Southerners who opted to stay loyal (Sam Houston being the most high profile one I can think of - and like Lee he was a slave holder).
@YellowSnow thank you for bringing up how Nebraska-classy Lee was when he surrendered. That's where I think the "kindly Lee" reputation is earned. Right or wrong, he was probably the voice most Confederates would listen to ('cause let's face it, it wasn't Jefferson Davis), so he definitely could've dragged out the war if he had wished.Free pub!Race did it again.
Late chin for you on the sawbones poast. Great chit. -
If Lee wanted to be remembered as an American hero, he should have taken command of the Army of the Potomac and ended the war quickly. Without Lee, the South would have been crushed in an instant. It was largely the incompetence of Union leadership and Lee's early gains that prolonged the war. Plenty of other Virginians stayed loyal to the Union, so the notion that everyone in those days was only loyal to their home state is bullshit.
Instead, Lee chose to fight to protect the original sin of this country's founding, and now his house is a cemetery. Rommel was a great military leader too, and not REALLY a Nazi by most accounts. But fuck him too.
Losers don't write history. Not even classy ones.
Of course, a quick war likely leads to a quick reconciliation, and likely no end to slavery. Lincoln himself admitted that preserving the Union was paramount. So maybe a really bloody, shitty Civil War 150 years ago saved us all a bunch of trouble these days.
Thanks Lee, for your service. -
Speaking of Nazis, Werner Von Braun has his name on every third building here.ThomasFremont said:If Lee wanted to be remembered as an American hero, he should have taken command of the Army of the Potomac and ended the war quickly. Without Lee, the South would have been crushed in an instant. It was largely the incompetence of Union leadership and Lee's early gains that prolonged the war. Plenty of other Virginians stayed loyal to the Union, so the notion that everyone in those days was only loyal to their home state is bullshit.
Instead, Lee chose to fight to protect the original sin of this country's founding, and now his house is a cemetery. Rommel was a great military leader too, and not REALLY a Nazi by most accounts. But fuck him too.
Losers don't write history. Not even classy ones.
Of course, a quick war likely leads to a quick reconciliation, and likely no end to slavery. Lincoln himself admitted that preserving the Union was paramount. So maybe a really bloody, shitty Civil War 150 years ago saved us all a bunch of trouble these days.
Thanks Lee, for your service.
Basically if you're not into high treason or genocide you aren't getting anything named after you in Alabama. This is the one area of the state viewed as progressive as well. -
Von Braun is a weird case. Like Rommel, the rumor is he wasn't a REAL Nazi. Allegedly he dressed up and played along, but didn't believe in any of it. He just loved his country and was damn good at what he did. And maybe wasn't given a choice by the scary people in charge. He was a rocket nerd, not a general.Mosster47 said:
Speaking of Nazis, Werner Von Braun has his name on every third building here.ThomasFremont said:If Lee wanted to be remembered as an American hero, he should have taken command of the Army of the Potomac and ended the war quickly. Without Lee, the South would have been crushed in an instant. It was largely the incompetence of Union leadership and Lee's early gains that prolonged the war. Plenty of other Virginians stayed loyal to the Union, so the notion that everyone in those days was only loyal to their home state is bullshit.
Instead, Lee chose to fight to protect the original sin of this country's founding, and now his house is a cemetery. Rommel was a great military leader too, and not REALLY a Nazi by most accounts. But fuck him too.
Losers don't write history. Not even classy ones.
Of course, a quick war likely leads to a quick reconciliation, and likely no end to slavery. Lincoln himself admitted that preserving the Union was paramount. So maybe a really bloody, shitty Civil War 150 years ago saved us all a bunch of trouble these days.
Thanks Lee, for your service.
Basically if you're not into high treason or genocide you aren't getting anything named after you in Alabama. This is the one area of the state viewed as progressive as well.
But then he created the V-2 rocket "vengeance weapon" using slave labor. Survivors claimed they witnessed him personally oversee executions of suspected saboteurs in the factory.
BUT...then he helped us win the space race against Ivan.
The rocket/space stuff is the only thing we know is true. The other allegations didn't stick. Though you have to wonder if his value to our rocket program didn't earn him a clean slate from the US government.
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It's almost like humans are complex and their ultimate value is what they can produceThomasFremont said:
Von Braun is a weird case. Like Rommel, the rumor is he wasn't a REAL Nazi. Allegedly he dressed up and played along, but didn't believe in any of it. He just loved his country and was damn good at what he did. And maybe wasn't given a choice by the scary people in charge. He was a rocket nerd, not a general.Mosster47 said:
Speaking of Nazis, Werner Von Braun has his name on every third building here.ThomasFremont said:If Lee wanted to be remembered as an American hero, he should have taken command of the Army of the Potomac and ended the war quickly. Without Lee, the South would have been crushed in an instant. It was largely the incompetence of Union leadership and Lee's early gains that prolonged the war. Plenty of other Virginians stayed loyal to the Union, so the notion that everyone in those days was only loyal to their home state is bullshit.
Instead, Lee chose to fight to protect the original sin of this country's founding, and now his house is a cemetery. Rommel was a great military leader too, and not REALLY a Nazi by most accounts. But fuck him too.
Losers don't write history. Not even classy ones.
Of course, a quick war likely leads to a quick reconciliation, and likely no end to slavery. Lincoln himself admitted that preserving the Union was paramount. So maybe a really bloody, shitty Civil War 150 years ago saved us all a bunch of trouble these days.
Thanks Lee, for your service.
Basically if you're not into high treason or genocide you aren't getting anything named after you in Alabama. This is the one area of the state viewed as progressive as well.
But then he created the V-2 rocket "vengeance weapon" using slave labor. Survivors claimed they witnessed him personally oversee executions of suspected saboteurs in the factory.
BUT...then he helped us win the space race against Ivan.
The rocket/space stuff is the only thing we know is true. The other allegations didn't stick. Though you have to wonder if his value to our rocket program didn't earn him a clean slate from the US government. -
Great slave master mentality as always
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ro_pZeaMcNk
