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A Free Market(ish) Approach to fixing Healthcare

UW_Doog_BotUW_Doog_Bot Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 14,188
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As promised if a bit late. Blame Facebook's ultra shitty search function and my laziness & apathy for convincing people of politics online in general.

Instead of an individual mandate(which is unconstitutional) Congress may pass a tax exemption for every dollar spent on healthcare directly (unlimited, no minimum) or insurance(with a cap) by Citizens. Remove the 10% of income minimum per item on medical expenses etc..

HSA's should be exempt from capital gains and contributions should be tax exempt from income tax. Regular income schedule/capital gains should apply if taken out for other expenditures.

As we already have "Universal Healthcare" although haphazardly and terribly planned through a mandate to treat and a combination of medicaid/unpaid medical bills etc. I actually propose keeping the pre-existing condition clauses of the ACA. I realize this will increase premiums for those of us without pre-existing conditions but it should reduce the amount of money paid to the government to then pay for medicaid expenses and/or help drive down costs for unpaid bills. I also think the concept actually impedes a free market by locking individuals into their current healthcare provider thus not allowing for competition.

One size fits all policies would be eliminated. All young and healthy people should be able to purchase cheap high deductible catastrophic insurance if that's all they want to purchase. Overall, that would bring in more people into the "universal" net and reduce one of our major failures which is catastrophic bills having to be paid by the state or the hospital. This would reduce costs to the rest of us paying normal premiums.

Caps on donations to charities serving high risk pools should be reduced(think St Jude's Children's Hospital) and I actually view federal funding of research hospitals as a good thing as well as prize funds for cures/breakthroughs in research. Pure research(where you might not know what you will get) is a place where the market forces aren't necessarily great without patent or other government protection. We should also stop letting the rest of the world bully our pharma industries as we are essentially subsidizing all medical pharma research for all the "socialized" medical programs of the world. I'd probably also be fine with rolling high risk pools into medicaid but putting them on a voucher system so that they can purchase their own medical care in an open market with competition.

Open up competition across state borders for Health Insurance to help manage costs through competition. Create some standardized rules/best practices around administration etc. through use of the interstate commerce clause. We already do this in plenty of industries. Think DOT or clean air act, mandates are federal, rules are made and enforced at a state level within the guidelines of those federal mandates.

Is this ideal? Fuck no. Would it be an improvement over the current system? I think so. It's full of compromise, doesn't really touch medicaid or medicare, and is *maybe* politically feasible. Probably not in today's hyper-partisan atmosphere though.

Disagree with something? Great! That's what I've got so far. It's a working draft. I'm happy to take feedback and improve it with your help. Policy wonks welcome.

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    pawzpawz Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 18,756
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    As promised if a bit late. Blame Facebook's ultra shitty search function and my laziness & apathy for convincing people of politics online in general.

    Instead of an individual mandate(which is unconstitutional) Congress may pass a tax exemption for every dollar spent on healthcare directly (unlimited, no minimum) or insurance(with a cap) by Citizens. Remove the 10% of income minimum per item on medical expenses etc..

    HSA's should be exempt from capital gains and contributions should be tax exempt from income tax. Regular income schedule/capital gains should apply if taken out for other expenditures.

    As we already have "Universal Healthcare" although haphazardly and terribly planned through a mandate to treat and a combination of medicaid/unpaid medical bills etc. I actually propose keeping the pre-existing condition clauses of the ACA. I realize this will increase premiums for those of us without pre-existing conditions but it should reduce the amount of money paid to the government to then pay for medicaid expenses and/or help drive down costs for unpaid bills. I also think the concept actually impedes a free market by locking individuals into their current healthcare provider thus not allowing for competition.

    One size fits all policies would be eliminated. All young and healthy people should be able to purchase cheap high deductible catastrophic insurance if that's all they want to purchase. Overall, that would bring in more people into the "universal" net and reduce one of our major failures which is catastrophic bills having to be paid by the state or the hospital. This would reduce costs to the rest of us paying normal premiums.

    Caps on donations to charities serving high risk pools should be reduced(think St Jude's Children's Hospital) and I actually view federal funding of research hospitals as a good thing as well as prize funds for cures/breakthroughs in research. Pure research(where you might not know what you will get) is a place where the market forces aren't necessarily great without patent or other government protection. We should also stop letting the rest of the world bully our pharma industries as we are essentially subsidizing all medical pharma research for all the "socialized" medical programs of the world. I'd probably also be fine with rolling high risk pools into medicaid but putting them on a voucher system so that they can purchase their own medical care in an open market with competition.

    Open up competition across state borders for Health Insurance to help manage costs through competition. Create some standardized rules/best practices around administration etc. through use of the interstate commerce clause. We already do this in plenty of industries. Think DOT or clean air act, mandates are federal, rules are made and enforced at a state level within the guidelines of those federal mandates.

    Is this ideal? Fuck no. Would it be an improvement over the current system? I think so. It's full of compromise, doesn't really touch medicaid or medicare, and is *maybe* politically feasible. Probably not in today's hyper-partisan atmosphere though.

    Disagree with something? Great! That's what I've got so far. It's a working draft. I'm happy to take feedback and improve it with your help. Policy wonks welcome.

    Some interesting ideas.
















    In before HFS.
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    UW_Doog_BotUW_Doog_Bot Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 14,188
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    GreenRiverGatorzGreenRiverGatorz Member Posts: 10,147
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    Good shit @UW_Doog_Bot. I don't know if this is your own personal proposal or something already put forward by someone else, but it's the first time I've seen it.

    I dig the compromise. Keep the pre-existing condition protection and further incentivize smart health finances like HSAs (though inevitably a chunk of people will fail to utilize this, it'll still have a material impact on cutting costs). The state "competition" idea should be a political no-brainer, I honestly have no idea why that's not brought up more. The easiest way to slash costs quickly would be to implement a system where you don't need 50 different entities of the same insurance company. No shit you have admin bloat when you have different rules and pricing structures every time you cross state lines.

    Anywise, I'd 100% get behind this kind of system. Obviously it's far from a cure-all, but it's the kind of incremental progress that good legislation needs to look like.
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    This is good. I've been sparring with Sledog and my IQ is down a few points. I want to go rest for a few hours and re-read this and give it the response it deserves. Seriously. I already have a few questions.
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    PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 41,798
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    You really want to put some sanity into providing affordable health coverage, you’d consider declining benefits towards end of life.

    What is the stat? Something like 75% of medical cost incurred in the last three weeks of life....that’s just fucking stupid to pump that kind of jack into keeping granny around for another couple days. Actuarially, somebody is covering those costs and it sure as fuck isn’t the old dead people - it gets passed on to the rest of the insurable pool.
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    RaceBannonRaceBannon Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 101,203
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    My mom asked us to kill her if she ever had to go to the home

    We didn't and she spent 6 years in memory care. She had that covered with her investments but I'm sure her medical insurance took plenty of hits.

    We need better end of life management. I actually feel bad that we didn't do it

    She may have lost her memory but she was pissed. Wouldn't talk to me

    Something to look forward to for you kids
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    creepycougcreepycoug Member Posts: 22,741
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    My mom asked us to kill her if she ever had to go to the home

    We didn't and she spent 6 years in memory care. She had that covered with her investments but I'm sure her medical insurance took plenty of hits.

    We need better end of life management. I actually feel bad that we didn't do it

    She may have lost her memory but she was pissed. Wouldn't talk to me

    Something to look forward to for you kids

    I watched my mom take care of her mom .. a process that was virtually 24/7/365 for a little over 4 years. Siblings didn't bear their share of the burden - I think that happens a lot. It took its toll and embittered her for a period of time. Not easy. I can see it. Agree. We need better.
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    UW_Doog_BotUW_Doog_Bot Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 14,188
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    Good shit @UW_Doog_Bot. I don't know if this is your own personal proposal or something already put forward by someone else, but it's the first time I've seen it.

    I dig the compromise. Keep the pre-existing condition protection and further incentivize smart health finances like HSAs (though inevitably a chunk of people will fail to utilize this, it'll still have a material impact on cutting costs). The state "competition" idea should be a political no-brainer, I honestly have no idea why that's not brought up more. The easiest way to slash costs quickly would be to implement a system where you don't need 50 different entities of the same insurance company. No shit you have admin bloat when you have different rules and pricing structures every time you cross state lines.

    Anywise, I'd 100% get behind this kind of system. Obviously it's far from a cure-all, but it's the kind of incremental progress that good legislation needs to look like.

    My work. Ty. It's developed over several years of discussion.
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    LebamDawgLebamDawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,537
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    Not sure where this falls into the discussion - but I noticed this article today about new rules for Health Reimbursement Accounts and loosening on other rules for obtaining health insurance

    https://issuesinsights.com/2019/06/19/trump-just-revolutionized-health-care-and-nobody-noticed/
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    KaepskneeKaepsknee Member Posts: 14,750
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    edited June 2019
    Good post. My solution is basic(shocker) and is along your lines of thinking.

    Keep insurance companies, allow them to compete in all states AND instead of just mandating a minimum reserve, also mandate a maximum reserve. Many insurance companies have reserves that are 2 to 3 times what there worst case projected payouts would be for a year. If the insurance company is above those reserves then they would need to rebate their insureds. Doing those two things would decrease premiums noticeably.


    Also, make long term care available at a young age and create incentives for young people to get it by discounting the traditional insurance premiums if they do. If you have young people paying into a pool for 40-50 years before they die, this will help alleviate the hospitals and providers getting stuck with the bill when people pass. It would be a lot like Life Insurance, the younger you are when you get it, the cheaper it is.

    As for hospitals, doctors and surgeons. Let's get those costs in line by putting cost caps on certain necessary procedures and also get put some serious caps on the cost of meds. ( that's a whole different animal of course) Let's also get some competition for the mal practice insurance that providers need to carry so that they can still make a decent living while charging lower prices for their services.
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    SFGbobSFGbob Member Posts: 31,920
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    Think about it, if during the course of your work life you were able to put away $50,000 in HSA savings. That's a little over $100 a month for 40 years of working. You'd have saved over $100,000 making just a 3.5% return on your investment.

    Now if you knew you could use that money to extend your life for a few weeks at the end of your life or leave to your kids or wife what would you choose?

    How many people would save even more than that if every dollar you put in up to a certain dollar amount was pre-tax money? You need to give people incentives to curb their medical care expenses and right now there are none.
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    USMChawkUSMChawk Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 1,796
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    salemcoog said:

    Also, make long term care available at a young age and create incentives for young people to get it by discounting the traditional insurance premiums if they do. If you have young people paying into a pool for 40-50 years before they die, this will help alleviate the hospitals and providers getting stuck with the bill when people pass. It would be a lot like Life Insurance, the younger you are when you get it, the cheaper it is.

    You’d have to separate health insurance (at least the HSA) from the employer benefits so they could take it with them when they switch jobs.
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    UW_Doog_BotUW_Doog_Bot Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 14,188
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    salemcoog said:

    Good post. My solution is basic(shocker) and is along your lines of thinking.

    Keep insurance companies, allow them to compete in all states AND instead of just mandating a minimum reserve, also mandate a maximum reserve. Many insurance companies have reserves that are 2 to 3 times what there worst case projected payouts would be for a year. If the insurance company is above those reserves then they would need to rebate their insureds. Doing those two things would decrease premiums noticeably.


    Also, make long term care available at a young age and create incentives for young people to get it by discounting the traditional insurance premiums if they do. If you have young people paying into a pool for 40-50 years before they die, this will help alleviate the hospitals and providers getting stuck with the bill when people pass. It would be a lot like Life Insurance, the younger you are when you get it, the cheaper it is.

    As for hospitals, doctors and surgeons. Let's get those costs in line by putting cost caps on certain necessary procedures and also get put some serious caps on the cost of meds. ( that's a whole different animal of course) Let's also get some competition for the mal practice insurance that providers need to carry so that they can still make a decent living while charging lower prices for their services.

    Everything you said after this I disagree with. You are attempting to micromanage a market and haven't thought through any of the secondary effects of what any of your policies would create.

    Ex. Cost caps sound great from a consumer's first view except that they will simply create a shortage of supply by reducing the number of providers. Long term net loss.
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    UW_Doog_BotUW_Doog_Bot Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 14,188
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    SFGbob said:

    Think about it, if during the course of your work life you were able to put away $50,000 in HSA savings. That's a little over $100 a month for 40 years of working. You'd have saved over $100,000 making just a 3.5% return on your investment.

    Now if you knew you could use that money to extend your life for a few weeks at the end of your life or leave to your kids or wife what would you choose?

    How many people would save even more than that if every dollar you put in up to a certain dollar amount was pre-tax money? You need to give people incentives to curb their medical care expenses and right now there are none.

    Imagine how much cheaper care would be when consumers are connected to the cost of care as well. All of a sudden price becomes important to the value proposition again.
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    UW_Doog_BotUW_Doog_Bot Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 14,188
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    USMChawk said:

    salemcoog said:

    Also, make long term care available at a young age and create incentives for young people to get it by discounting the traditional insurance premiums if they do. If you have young people paying into a pool for 40-50 years before they die, this will help alleviate the hospitals and providers getting stuck with the bill when people pass. It would be a lot like Life Insurance, the younger you are when you get it, the cheaper it is.

    You’d have to separate health insurance (at least the HSA) from the employer benefits so they could take it with them when they switch jobs.
    Just set it up how 401k's currently work. You can either leave it untouched for a given amount of time in the same fund or transfer it to your new one.
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    UW_Doog_BotUW_Doog_Bot Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 14,188
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    Swaye said:

    I don't understand any of this. I know I blew up terrorists for a number of years, and that netted me some healthcare. Fuck yeah. I would have blown up terrorists for free, but throw in health care? FUCK YES.

    Now, let's not talk about my "quality" of health care...

    The VA is the best example of why the US shouldn't have state run healthcare...
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    KaepskneeKaepsknee Member Posts: 14,750
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    salemcoog said:

    Good post. My solution is basic(shocker) and is along your lines of thinking.

    Keep insurance companies, allow them to compete in all states AND instead of just mandating a minimum reserve, also mandate a maximum reserve. Many insurance companies have reserves that are 2 to 3 times what there worst case projected payouts would be for a year. If the insurance company is above those reserves then they would need to rebate their insureds. Doing those two things would decrease premiums noticeably.


    Also, make long term care available at a young age and create incentives for young people to get it by discounting the traditional insurance premiums if they do. If you have young people paying into a pool for 40-50 years before they die, this will help alleviate the hospitals and providers getting stuck with the bill when people pass. It would be a lot like Life Insurance, the younger you are when you get it, the cheaper it is.

    As for hospitals, doctors and surgeons. Let's get those costs in line by putting cost caps on certain necessary procedures and also get put some serious caps on the cost of meds. ( that's a whole different animal of course) Let's also get some competition for the mal practice insurance that providers need to carry so that they can still make a decent living while charging lower prices for their services.

    Everything you said after this I disagree with. You are attempting to micromanage a market and haven't thought through any of the secondary effects of what any of your policies would create.

    Ex. Cost caps sound great from a consumer's first view except that they will simply create a shortage of supply by reducing the number of providers. Long term net loss.
    Hmmm... So you're saying that making insurers return excess reserves wouldn't save the insured money???

    Also you think that forcing providers, whom already have their patients held hostage due to in network requirements, to charge a fair market rate would somehow send providers fleeing to learn how to code?

    Chinteresting.
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    KaepskneeKaepsknee Member Posts: 14,750
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    edited June 2019
    USMChawk said:

    salemcoog said:

    Also, make long term care available at a young age and create incentives for young people to get it by discounting the traditional insurance premiums if they do. If you have young people paying into a pool for 40-50 years before they die, this will help alleviate the hospitals and providers getting stuck with the bill when people pass. It would be a lot like Life Insurance, the younger you are when you get it, the cheaper it is.

    You’d have to separate health insurance (at least the HSA) from the employer benefits so they could take it with them when they switch jobs.
    I agree and think it could easily be done. Instead of the employer paying the insurer directly. Have the employer pay the employee whatever they currently pay to the insured to the employee and the employee pays the insurance company directly. This further increases competition and lowers costs all on it's own.
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