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Round 1 (60's Groups) - #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival vs #9 Cream

YellowSnow
YellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 37,319 Founders Club
in Yellow Snow's Record Shoppe
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Round 1 (60's Groups) - #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival vs #9 Cream 42 votes

#8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
69%
SwayewhlinderSoutherndawgCirrhosisDawgMad_SonDeepSeaZAZDuckUWhuskytskeetYouKnowItCokeGreaterThanPepsidncchuckdfleaoregonblitzkriegDooglesKaepskneeJaWarrenJaHookerEwaDawgAlexisPitchfork51 29 votes
#9 Cream
30%
BennyBeaverRoadDawg55Dennis_DeYoungTequillaBad_MotherDuckerGrundleStiltzkinIPukeOregonGrellowLebamDawgBearsWiinEl_KJoeyUW_Doog_BotDoogCourics 13 votes
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  • YellowSnow
    YellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 37,319 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    This was a really difficult choice for me personally. Ginger Baker is a top 3 rock drummer of all time for me and I love Cream's body of work. They, along with Hendrix, the Who, and Jeff Beck laid the foundation for the first wave of Metal- i.e., Sabbath and LZ. But god damnit, the John Foggerty was a one man hit machine between 1969 and 1970 the likes of rich the rock world has hardly seen. Seriously, all of CCR's great songs were recorded over about 18 months. That's fucking nuts.
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  • Swaye
    Swaye Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 41,739 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Tough one here to....but "747 coming outta the sky...." is tough to beat.
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  • chuck
    chuck Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 11,685 Swaye's Wigwam
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Good matchup of two of my favorites. CCR pretty easy win when it's all said and done though.
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  • Dennis_DeYoung
    Dennis_DeYoung Member Posts: 14,754
    #9 Cream
    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.
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  • Southerndawg
    Southerndawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,347 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.
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  • YellowSnow
    YellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 37,319 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    CCR has always annoyed me. That 'we are from SF, but we act like we are swampies from Nola' bullshit never went for me.

    They are definitely not SF. They are East Bay- i.e., Fast Strategy.

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  • Swaye
    Swaye Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 41,739 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

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  • Dennis_DeYoung
    Dennis_DeYoung Member Posts: 14,754
    #9 Cream
    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Too much Lars.
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  • IPukeOregonGrellow
    IPukeOregonGrellow Member Posts: 2,183
    #9 Cream
    If for no other reason, the Ginger Baker documentary on Netflix.
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  • Southerndawg
    Southerndawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,347 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
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  • YellowSnow
    YellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 37,319 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Tequilla said:

    White Room and Sunshine of Your Love better than anything CCR could ever dream of

    Disagree. The rhythm section and groove of Born on the Bayou is better than anything Cream could have dreamed of.

    People forget that by the end of Cream's tenure, Clapton, was sick of the heavy stuff and wanted to go all in with roots rocks. Delaney and Bonney anyone? JJ Cale?

    Try Hard White People roots rocks is the shit.
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  • Southerndawg
    Southerndawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,347 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    YellowSnow said:

    Tequilla said:

    White Room and Sunshine of Your Love better than anything CCR could ever dream of

    Disagree. The rhythm section and groove of Born on the Bayou is better than anything Cream could have dreamed of.

    People forget that by the end of Cream's tenure, Clapton, was sick of the heavy stuff and wanted to go all in with roots rocks. Delaney and Bonney anyone? JJ Cale?

    Try Hard White People roots rocks is the shit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVGTGW0cCw8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKAYGVIkbok&list=RDBKAYGVIkbok&t=48

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4tR9RaEPCc

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  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,102
    #9 Cream
    YellowSnow said:

    Tequilla said:

    White Room and Sunshine of Your Love better than anything CCR could ever dream of

    Disagree. The rhythm section and groove of Born on the Bayou is better than anything Cream could have dreamed of.

    People forget that by the end of Cream's tenure, Clapton, was sick of the heavy stuff and wanted to go all in with roots rocks. Delaney and Bonney anyone? JJ Cale?

    Try Hard White People roots rocks is the shit.
    Southern Rockers that don’t rock deserve to be lapping the sweat off of @WilburHooksHands taint
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  • Southerndawg
    Southerndawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,347 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Tequilla said:

    YellowSnow said:

    Tequilla said:

    White Room and Sunshine of Your Love better than anything CCR could ever dream of

    Disagree. The rhythm section and groove of Born on the Bayou is better than anything Cream could have dreamed of.

    People forget that by the end of Cream's tenure, Clapton, was sick of the heavy stuff and wanted to go all in with roots rocks. Delaney and Bonney anyone? JJ Cale?

    Try Hard White People roots rocks is the shit.
    Southern Rockers that don’t rock deserve to be lapping the sweat off of @WilburHooksHands taint
    WTF'd on two counts. First, CCR was not a southern band. They were from California attempting to emulate a Southern Rock sound. And second, some of the best music of the late 60's and early 70's rolled out of Florida and Georgia as well as from recording studios in Alabama. The Stones, Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, Eric Clapton, the Allman Brothers, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Bob Seger, Cat Stevens, and a whole lot more.
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  • Swaye
    Swaye Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 41,739 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Southerndawg said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
    I could care less about Lars and his personal quest against Napster. Metallica not only created an entire style of music, even though they were first, nobody, out of hundreds of bands that have tried, have ever done it better. You would be hard pressed to find a band with more bona fide legendary songs in almost any genre - Mandatory Metallica routinely plays two dozen songs through the loop and every single one of them is bad ass. Handful of bands ever in any genre have that many "hits." Most well known bands have one or two great albums. Three if they are lucky. Less than a half dozen have 5 like Metallica, and 6 if you count Garage Days. All in an un-radio friendly format (8 minute songs?!?!?!), with no support from MTV or radio until One.

    I get that I am a fanboy, but I was in a packed stadium listening to them in 1985, and then again last year - 32 years in between shows and they have only gotten louder, harder, and better. Best live shows ever. Ever. And I have seen a TON of bands live. They are just the GOAT.

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  • YellowSnow
    YellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 37,319 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
    I could care less about Lars and his personal quest against Napster. Metallica not only created an entire style of music, even though they were first, nobody, out of hundreds of bands that have tried, have ever done it better. You would be hard pressed to find a band with more bona fide legendary songs in almost any genre - Mandatory Metallica routinely plays two dozen songs through the loop and every single one of them is bad ass. Handful of bands ever in any genre have that many "hits." Most well known bands have one or two great albums. Three if they are lucky. Less than a half dozen have 5 like Metallica, and 6 if you count Garage Days. All in an un-radio friendly format (8 minute songs?!?!?!), with no support from MTV or radio until One.

    I get that I am a fanboy, but I was in a packed stadium listening to them in 1985, and then again last year - 32 years in between shows and they have only gotten louder, harder, and better. Best live shows ever. Ever. And I have seen a TON of bands live. They are just the GOAT.

    #2 Metallica tips off tomorrow against cream puff #15 Black Keys. It's gonna get ugly in a hurry.
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  • Tequilla
    Tequilla Member Posts: 20,102
    #9 Cream
    Southerndawg said:

    Tequilla said:

    YellowSnow said:

    Tequilla said:

    White Room and Sunshine of Your Love better than anything CCR could ever dream of

    Disagree. The rhythm section and groove of Born on the Bayou is better than anything Cream could have dreamed of.

    People forget that by the end of Cream's tenure, Clapton, was sick of the heavy stuff and wanted to go all in with roots rocks. Delaney and Bonney anyone? JJ Cale?

    Try Hard White People roots rocks is the shit.
    Southern Rockers that don’t rock deserve to be lapping the sweat off of @WilburHooksHands taint
    WTF'd on two counts. First, CCR was not a southern band. They were from California attempting to emulate a Southern Rock sound. And second, some of the best music of the late 60's and early 70's rolled out of Florida and Georgia as well as from recording studios in Alabama. The Stones, Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, Eric Clapton, the Allman Brothers, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Bob Seger, Cat Stevens, and a whole lot more.
    You clearly missed the part where I said DON’T ROCK ... those you mention do

    If you impersonate a Southerner you’re a Southerner in my book
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  • Swaye
    Swaye Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 41,739 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    YellowSnow said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
    I could care less about Lars and his personal quest against Napster. Metallica not only created an entire style of music, even though they were first, nobody, out of hundreds of bands that have tried, have ever done it better. You would be hard pressed to find a band with more bona fide legendary songs in almost any genre - Mandatory Metallica routinely plays two dozen songs through the loop and every single one of them is bad ass. Handful of bands ever in any genre have that many "hits." Most well known bands have one or two great albums. Three if they are lucky. Less than a half dozen have 5 like Metallica, and 6 if you count Garage Days. All in an un-radio friendly format (8 minute songs?!?!?!), with no support from MTV or radio until One.

    I get that I am a fanboy, but I was in a packed stadium listening to them in 1985, and then again last year - 32 years in between shows and they have only gotten louder, harder, and better. Best live shows ever. Ever. And I have seen a TON of bands live. They are just the GOAT.

    #2 Metallica tips off tomorrow against cream puff #15 Black Keys. It's gonna get ugly in a hurry.
    RIP Black Keys.

    I am most interested in Nirvana vs. Soundgarden. No question which band had more musical talent, but Kurt head shot has made them into something well beyond what they ever were in life.
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  • Southerndawg
    Southerndawg Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 8,347 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
    I could care less about Lars and his personal quest against Napster. Metallica not only created an entire style of music, even though they were first, nobody, out of hundreds of bands that have tried, have ever done it better. You would be hard pressed to find a band with more bona fide legendary songs in almost any genre - Mandatory Metallica routinely plays two dozen songs through the loop and every single one of them is bad ass. Handful of bands ever in any genre have that many "hits." Most well known bands have one or two great albums. Three if they are lucky. Less than a half dozen have 5 like Metallica, and 6 if you count Garage Days. All in an un-radio friendly format (8 minute songs?!?!?!), with no support from MTV or radio until One.

    I get that I am a fanboy, but I was in a packed stadium listening to them in 1985, and then again last year - 32 years in between shows and they have only gotten louder, harder, and better. Best live shows ever. Ever. And I have seen a TON of bands live. They are just the GOAT.

    Chinned for the passion. Cheers!
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  • dflea
    dflea Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 7,287 Swaye's Wigwam
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
    I could care less about Lars and his personal quest against Napster. Metallica not only created an entire style of music, even though they were first, nobody, out of hundreds of bands that have tried, have ever done it better. You would be hard pressed to find a band with more bona fide legendary songs in almost any genre - Mandatory Metallica routinely plays two dozen songs through the loop and every single one of them is bad ass. Handful of bands ever in any genre have that many "hits." Most well known bands have one or two great albums. Three if they are lucky. Less than a half dozen have 5 like Metallica, and 6 if you count Garage Days. All in an un-radio friendly format (8 minute songs?!?!?!), with no support from MTV or radio until One.

    I get that I am a fanboy, but I was in a packed stadium listening to them in 1985, and then again last year - 32 years in between shows and they have only gotten louder, harder, and better. Best live shows ever. Ever. And I have seen a TON of bands live. They are just the GOAT.

    Yes. Almost all of this is true and spot on. If AC/DC and Metallica happen to show up in the final game - which they won't because not everyone kicks ass like we do - I'm going to have a fucking aneurysm trying to pick a winner. No, that's a lie - AC/DC wins that game 7 times out of 10. I know Metallica is going to win a few, because I've seen them live, too, and the show they did in Seattle with The Cult on the One tour could be the best concert I've ever seen. I left that show exhausted, and beat all to fuck from being in the pit when Metallica was going at full speed. They had the crowd seething like a human riptide, and just tore the fucking roof off the place - without Cliff there to pave the way. TBH, I thought that One show was better than when I saw them previously with Cliff.

    I don't give a fuck about the Napster stuff, either. Just like I don't give a fuck about a musician's political beliefs. If that's how you pick your music, then you're a fucking donkey and you should drown yourself immediately.


    Yella really spiced things up with the BOTB shit going on here. Makes you think. And care.

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  • dflea
    dflea Member, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 7,287 Swaye's Wigwam
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Swaye said:

    YellowSnow said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
    I could care less about Lars and his personal quest against Napster. Metallica not only created an entire style of music, even though they were first, nobody, out of hundreds of bands that have tried, have ever done it better. You would be hard pressed to find a band with more bona fide legendary songs in almost any genre - Mandatory Metallica routinely plays two dozen songs through the loop and every single one of them is bad ass. Handful of bands ever in any genre have that many "hits." Most well known bands have one or two great albums. Three if they are lucky. Less than a half dozen have 5 like Metallica, and 6 if you count Garage Days. All in an un-radio friendly format (8 minute songs?!?!?!), with no support from MTV or radio until One.

    I get that I am a fanboy, but I was in a packed stadium listening to them in 1985, and then again last year - 32 years in between shows and they have only gotten louder, harder, and better. Best live shows ever. Ever. And I have seen a TON of bands live. They are just the GOAT.

    #2 Metallica tips off tomorrow against cream puff #15 Black Keys. It's gonna get ugly in a hurry.
    RIP Black Keys.

    I am most interested in Nirvana vs. Soundgarden. No question which band had more musical talent, but Kurt head shot has made them into something well beyond what they ever were in life.
    Soundgarden wins this one quite easily. Cornell strung himself up to foul up Cobain's game plan.
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  • YellowSnow
    YellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 37,319 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    dflea said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
    I could care less about Lars and his personal quest against Napster. Metallica not only created an entire style of music, even though they were first, nobody, out of hundreds of bands that have tried, have ever done it better. You would be hard pressed to find a band with more bona fide legendary songs in almost any genre - Mandatory Metallica routinely plays two dozen songs through the loop and every single one of them is bad ass. Handful of bands ever in any genre have that many "hits." Most well known bands have one or two great albums. Three if they are lucky. Less than a half dozen have 5 like Metallica, and 6 if you count Garage Days. All in an un-radio friendly format (8 minute songs?!?!?!), with no support from MTV or radio until One.

    I get that I am a fanboy, but I was in a packed stadium listening to them in 1985, and then again last year - 32 years in between shows and they have only gotten louder, harder, and better. Best live shows ever. Ever. And I have seen a TON of bands live. They are just the GOAT.

    Yes. Almost all of this is true and spot on. If AC/DC and Metallica happen to show up in the final game - which they won't because not everyone kicks ass like we do - I'm going to have a fucking aneurysm trying to pick a winner. No, that's a lie - AC/DC wins that game 7 times out of 10. I know Metallica is going to win a few, because I've seen them live, too, and the show they did in Seattle with The Cult on the One tour could be the best concert I've ever seen. I left that show exhausted, and beat all to fuck from being in the pit when Metallica was going at full speed. They had the crowd seething like a human riptide, and just tore the fucking roof off the place - without Cliff there to pave the way. TBH, I thought that One show was better than when I saw them previously with Cliff.

    I don't give a fuck about the Napster stuff, either. Just like I don't give a fuck about a musician's political beliefs. If that's how you pick your music, then you're a fucking donkey and you should drown yourself immediately.


    Yella really spiced things up with the BOTB shit going on here. Makes you think. And care.

    Late 70s to early 80s plays late 90s to present in the semi final. So an @dflea vs @Swaye semi final fight to the death could be in the cards.
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  • oregonblitzkrieg
    oregonblitzkrieg Member Posts: 15,288
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Swaye said:

    YellowSnow said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Swaye said:

    Southerndawg said:

    Dennis_DeYoung said:

    Cream doesn't have many good songs, but CCR doesn't have any.

    This was a tough choice. IMO, Cream was way more talented, but CCR had more "good" songs. Besides the Brits will probably win this tourney in the end, gotta go with an underdog.

    Chinned for the fuck you, but Naptser hating Metallica?
    I could care less about Lars and his personal quest against Napster. Metallica not only created an entire style of music, even though they were first, nobody, out of hundreds of bands that have tried, have ever done it better. You would be hard pressed to find a band with more bona fide legendary songs in almost any genre - Mandatory Metallica routinely plays two dozen songs through the loop and every single one of them is bad ass. Handful of bands ever in any genre have that many "hits." Most well known bands have one or two great albums. Three if they are lucky. Less than a half dozen have 5 like Metallica, and 6 if you count Garage Days. All in an un-radio friendly format (8 minute songs?!?!?!), with no support from MTV or radio until One.

    I get that I am a fanboy, but I was in a packed stadium listening to them in 1985, and then again last year - 32 years in between shows and they have only gotten louder, harder, and better. Best live shows ever. Ever. And I have seen a TON of bands live. They are just the GOAT.

    #2 Metallica tips off tomorrow against cream puff #15 Black Keys. It's gonna get ugly in a hurry.
    I am most interested in Nirvana vs. Soundgarden. No question which band had more musical talent, but Kurt head shot has made them into something well beyond what they ever were in life.

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  • BleachedAnusDawg
    BleachedAnusDawg Member Posts: 13,313 Standard Supporter
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    YellowSnow said:

    Tequilla said:

    White Room and Sunshine of Your Love better than anything CCR could ever dream of

    Disagree. The rhythm section and groove of Born on the Bayou is better than anything Cream could have dreamed of.

    People forget that by the end of Cream's tenure, Clapton, was sick of the heavy stuff and wanted to go all in with roots rocks. Delaney and Bonney anyone? JJ Cale?

    Try Hard White People roots rocks is the shit.
    Dunno how I forgot that CCR made Born on the Bayou. Fuck ya. Anything that made The Waterboy soundtrack gets my vote.
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  • Swaye
    Swaye Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 41,739 Founders Club
    #8 Creedence Clearwater Revival
    Good chit bored.

    Couple thoughts....

    Soundgarden was way more talented than Nirvana. Dave Grohl is the only Nirvana member with true talent. Soundgarden should win this one rather easily, say 34-17? I just know there are MANY fanboys of Kurt and thought he was some kind of tortured soul oracle that speaks to them from the grave or some shit. Look, everyone loved Smells Like Teen Spirit....but from there, uh, okay a few decent songs. Nothing Earth-shattering. At all. I'll go to my grave saying Rusty Cage > Anything Nirvana ever did. And, Chris Cornell had one of the most powerful voices in rock, like ever. I'm talking Ronnie James Dio level pipes.

    ACDC vs. Metallica will be super interesting, and could go either way, though tbh I think with the group here ACDC will win that battle. And there isn't anything wrong with that. ACDC is number 3 on my all time band list, and they are so bad ass it isn't funny. I've seen them live twice, and they kick ass live as well. I just think Metallica edges them out for wall of sound and music complexity. But if you lose to ACDC, that isn't too humbling. The final 4 will be all time rock heavyweights. No shame in that.

    1. Metallica
    2. Black Sabbath
    3. ACDC
    4. Led Zeppelin
    5. Tool

    Reasonable to assume 3 out my top 5 all time bands will be in the FF. Wicked.
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