Why does Jordan get a pass for '95?
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The same Spurs team that is now done despite having a much better Kawaii Leonard and added another All Star in LaMarcus Aldridge?RaceBannon said:Lebron beat the Spurs. A better team than any one that Jordan faced
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So a thread about Jordan in 1995 ends up about Race and Lebron and I did not make a post until it did.
Point proven -
RaceBannon said:
Or.. he wins on rare occasions in the NBA FinalsRoadDawg55 said:
Your basketball analysis consists of, "LeBron's gonna win because I really want him to."RaceBannon said:The Pistons broke up once they lost to the Bulls. The Knicks were the Knicks. The rest of the east was non existent. The NBA has always been top heavy. It's like none of you actually watch basketball.
A 4 year old in 1991 is telling me about Jordan -
There's a whole lot of stupid in this thread ...
Jordan was 6 of 6 in Finals.
Jordan was 6 of 9 in Eastern Finals (losing in 6 to the Magic, in 6 to the Pistons in 89 and 7 to the Pistons in 90 - both Pistons teams won the title). Those Pistons teams beat the Lakers in 4 and Blazers in 5 to win titles ... so you could very easily argue that the Bulls were the 2nd best team in the league for those years. So for those that are too busy worshipping LBJ, in 9 straight seasons where Jordan at least suited up to play in his prime, he played in the Eastern Conference Finals at minimum and the winner of that series won the title 8 of the 9 seasons.
The script says that the Bulls never beat anybody in the Finals and that the East was weak during the periods that they won those titles:
Teams beat in the Eastern Finals:
'91: 2-time defending champion Pistons (50 wins in regular season)
'92: 57 win Cleveland team (2nd best record in East)
'93: 60 win New York Knicks team (top seed in the East)
'96: 60 win defending Eastern Champion Orlando
'97: 61 win Miami Heat (2nd best record in East)
'98: 58 win Indiana Pacers (2nd best record in East)
Teams beat in the Finals:
'91: LA Lakers (58 wins in regular season, 2nd best record in the West)
'92: 57 win Portland (2nd Finals in 3 years; lost to Lakers in West Finals in '91 as a 63 win team)
'93: 62 win Phoenix (best record in the league)
'96: 64 win Seattle (top seed in the West)
'97: 64 win Utah (top seed in the West)
'98: 62 win Utah (top seed in the West)
The above list tells me that they pretty much played the top competition available to them on the way to the Finals.
The argument about Jordan being surrounded by so many great players is also laughable. Scottie Pippen was the PERFECT complementary player to MJ. Grant/Rodman were strong defenders/rebounders but neither would ever be confused with an offensive force. LBJ hasn't ever won shit without being surrounded by other great players. I think it's a fair argument to compare Wade vs Pippen as a better player. Bosh is certainly a better player than Grant and at worst a more well rounded player compared to Rodman. The rest of the roster was generally capable players that could fill their role. In many respects, not that much different from what LBJ expects out of his role players. Results though speak for themselves. 6-0 >>> 2-5 (which is 1-6 without the luckbox shot that Ray Allen hit in Game 6.
Moreover, when Jordan made it to the Finals, there was never serious doubt as to the winner as 5 of the 6 series ended in 6 games and the other series ended in 5 ... he never faced an elimination game in the Finals. That's unreal. What's even more unbelievable to me is that in the 6 championship years, the Bulls only faced 2 elimination games ('92 East Semi's to the Knicks and the '98 East Finals to the Pacers - both Game 7's). Talk about dominating the court and everything that goes on on that court.
There's a reason why Jordan is so universally viewed as the greatest player of all time. For as good as LBJ is, he's not anywhere close to the same ballpark.
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Look Freme while you and Shane play grab ass I'm going 1 on 4 and winningThomasFremont said:RaceBannon said:
Emphasis on not.greenblood said:
I might be a homer to some degree, but the 1992 Blazers with Drexler, Porter, Kersey, and Robinson has been long considered one of the best NBA teams in history NOT to win a championship.RaceBannon said:I will argue that claiming the East has been so bad all 5 years is dooging at its finest. Winners win and Lebron owns the East.
Same folks claim the pac 12 doesn't suck even though oregon wins it rather easily
Jordan beat a shitty West every year other than Phoenix
Why not just let the results stand? Jordan doesn't get blamed for 95 because he was playing baseball.
Pippen claiming he was a good as Lebron is what deserves shitRaceBannon said:
Or.. he winsRoadDawg55 said:
Your basketball analysis consists of, "LeBron's gonna win because I really want him to."RaceBannon said:The Pistons broke up once they lost to the Bulls. The Knicks were the Knicks. The rest of the east was non existent. The NBA has always been top heavy. It's like none of you actually watch basketball.
A 4 year old in 1991 is telling me about Jordan
Easy does it with the triple posts, PLSSRaceBannon said:Lebron beat the Spurs. A better team than any one that Jordan faced
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There is this concept called time and it marches onRoadDawg55 said:
The same Spurs team that is now done despite having a much better Kawaii Leonard and added another All Star in LaMarcus Aldridge?RaceBannon said:Lebron beat the Spurs. A better team than any one that Jordan faced
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Old Man Riverwalk is proving that time isn't that big of an issue for him ... I'm sure somewhere along the line it will catch up with him. He's basically on the Kareem track at this point ... I figure Duncan has somewhere between 2-3 years left in him if he wants it.
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You missed this year's play offs?Tequilla said:Old Man Riverwalk is proving that time isn't that big of an issue for him ... I'm sure somewhere along the line it will catch up with him. He's basically on the Kareem track at this point ... I figure Duncan has somewhere between 2-3 years left in him if he wants it.
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And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance. -
NBA TV had a great doc on the Rockets that took the Jordan issue on head on. As any viewer of ESPN Classic knows, the Rockets had struggled in the West during Jordan's first three. For one, they couldn't beat the Sonics. Even in 94 when they won their first title Seattle was the #1 seed. (fuck you Mutumbo)Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance.
They showed Jordan retiring and coming back and addressed his brief 1995 season. That was the year Hakeem abused the shit out of Shaq in a sweep.
The Rockets pointed to how they owned Jordan during the regular season through out those years -a true but meaningless fact.
Would have made a good finals at some point.
Jordan never beat a NBA champion after the first one against the Lakers with Magic and everyone hurt.
Not like beating a 5 time champ like the Spurs
Carry on -
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance. -
Drunk stream of conscience: Not necessarily comparing him to Jordan, but the mystique about Jordans invincibility is overblown. I guess what im saying is '95 leaves the window open for the next LBJ type to supplant Jordan as the greatest ever.RoadDawg55 said:
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance.
It's like @Auburndawg infected the nba universe with thisiron lawidea that Jordan is the greatest NO MATTER WHAT. I'm saying he lost to Kazaam in his prime. There's a chance. And Lebron isn't done yet. -
Disagree.RoadDawg55 said:
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance.
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His chance of catching Jordan is.Doogles said:
Drunk stream of conscience: Not necessarily comparing him to Jordan, but the mystique about Jordans invincibility is overblown. I guess what im saying is '95 leaves the window open for the next LBJ type to supplant Jordan as the greatest ever.RoadDawg55 said:
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance.
It's like @Auburndawg infected the nba universe with thisiron lawidea that Jordan is the greatest NO MATTER WHAT. I'm saying he lost to Kazaam in his prime. There's a chance. And Lebron isn't done yet. -
The Gilby avatar becomes especially frustrating when you are drunk on your phone at a bar and need to click on the tiny avatar to which asshole awesome or disparaged you. Fuck all of you!
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There isn't one objective measure to put LeBron above Jordan. Maybe LeBron will finish with more regular season MVP's if you want to stoop that low. But MJ had Pippen and Phil Jackson, LeBron had to play for Mike Brown, yadda, yadda. Facts are facts, boobie lips. If you want to argue that LeBron is better than Bird and Magic, I would agree.ThomasFremont said:
Disagree.RoadDawg55 said:
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance. -
Kareem won one with the Bucks and lost one. Then won 5 with the Lakers and lost 3(?). 6-4 in the finals. Russell was 10-1 (GO HAWKS!!!!. Russell had to beat Wilt every year and then most of the time West and Baylor.
Magic was 5-4.
6-0 probably won't be beat except that it already is. Going forward I don't see it happening.
As I have often said, losing to Dallas is the dark stain on the legacy of Lebron. 3-3 with two of the losses at Cleveland on horrible teams and a loss to the Spurs looks a lot better.
Lebron probably has 3 years max left before he fades away in the early rounds. His max over under is
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The "Jordan never beat a NBA champion after the first one against the Lakers" is a little fact picking to me ...
The 80s only saw title winners in the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, and 76ers in '83. By the early '90s, all of them had essentially faded away into retirement. -
Jordan didn't look like Jordan when he came back in '95 ... it's the consistency in his game that was off ... which was a hallmark of his game
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The 2000's was the Lakers and the Spurs. And the Celtics who the Heat beat
And every year some honks are all over Rose and Chicago's jock -
He didn't look like Jordan cause he wasn't wearing Jordan's jerseyTequilla said:Jordan didn't look like Jordan when he came back in '95 ... it's the consistency in his game that was off ... which was a hallmark of his game
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Ok. He still put 30 a game in the ecf which means he was operating at a high clip. He lost to the magic, in his prime, on a team he was accustomed to with oover 25 games to shake off the rust (which includes playoff games that are insanely more competitive than the regular season.Tequilla said:Jordan didn't look like Jordan when he came back in '95 ... it's the consistency in his game that was off ... which was a hallmark of his game
My point is that blemish has been erased from history, and I think it's relevant. -
Actually there are quite a few. That's the fucking point.RoadDawg55 said:
There isn't one objective measure to put LeBron above Jordan. Maybe LeBron will finish with more regular season MVP's if you want to stoop that low. But MJ had Pippen and Phil Jackson, LeBron had to play for Mike Brown, yadda, yadda. Facts are facts, boobie lips. If you want to argue that LeBron is better than Bird and Magic, I would agree.ThomasFremont said:
Disagree.RoadDawg55 said:
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance.
Jordan has 6-0.
LeBron has everything else. Against better competition.
If you think the 80s-90s NBA was better than the current version, go light yourself on fire.
This isn't even a debate. -
Fremont knows history
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No one mentions the 1995 loss to the Magic because with a full season of MJ the next year the Bulls swept the Magic in the playoffs.
Questioning the competition that either of these guys faced is fucking stupid. Lebrons path through the East may have been easier but he's run into Duncan 3 times in the Finals. He's a top 10 player of all time. Dirk is probably around 20th all time. Durant and Curry could push their way into the teens very easily. And Jordan's who he beat resume would look a lot stronger if he every actually lost a Finals. We'd view Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Payton and Kemp differently if they had a ring. -
The difference between Jordan and Lebron is Jordan would have murdered the Mavericks franchise if they tried to guard him with JJ Barea.
If you were going to have a 5 on 5 game of all the NBA greats in their prime and your life was on the line you'd pick Jordan first every time. It doesn't matter if anyone is ever a better basketball player. You'd pick him first because you wouldn't want to piss him off. That's why he's the GOAT. -
That's all anyone's been saying.allpurpleallgold said:No one mentions the 1995 loss to the Magic because with a full season of MJ the next year the Bulls swept the Magic in the playoffs.
Questioning the competition that either of these guys faced is fucking stupid. Lebrons path through the East may have been easier but he's run into Duncan 3 times in the Finals. He's a top 10 player of all time. Dirk is probably around 20th all time. Durant and Curry could push their way into the teens very easily. And Jordan's who he beat resume would look a lot stronger if he every actually lost a Finals. We'd view Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Payton and Kemp differently if they had a ring.
I agree the Finals matchups have been nasty for LeBron, but that's kind of the poont. If he was coming out of the west he wouldn't have made it nearly as often.
Great point about Jordan's resume at the end. -
LeBron might end up with more regular season MVP's. That's about it. The competition one isn't cut and dry. Top to bottom the league is much better now, but there were some pretty stacked teams in the 80's and 90's.ThomasFremont said:
Actually there are quite a few. That's the fucking point.RoadDawg55 said:
There isn't one objective measure to put LeBron above Jordan. Maybe LeBron will finish with more regular season MVP's if you want to stoop that low. But MJ had Pippen and Phil Jackson, LeBron had to play for Mike Brown, yadda, yadda. Facts are facts, boobie lips. If you want to argue that LeBron is better than Bird and Magic, I would agree.ThomasFremont said:
Disagree.RoadDawg55 said:
LBJ is not underrated. He's one of the best of all time. Trying to compare him to Jordan is FS though. It's not even close.Doogles said:And to think I almost didn't click "post discussion"
I've moved to a much seedier dive and have switched from bloodies to Jameson and headlands ipa.
I'll keep drinking while the slap fight ensues. LBJ is underrated by this board, but Jordan kept hall of famers from wearing rings. My initial comment was more to the point that Jordan was beaten in his prime and didn't make the finals. Any Houston fans can also call Bullshit on the claim Olajuwon only won bc Jordan wasn't there. He was, he just missed the dance.
Jordan has 6-0.
LeBron has everything else. Against better competition.
If you think the 80s-90s NBA was better than the current version, go light yourself on fire.
This isn't even a debate. -
Teams were better back then, but the talent is on another level now. I think the spurs have balanced the two the best in the modern Era and that's why they are the most successful franchise. AAU ball, free agency, nutritional health, sports science, money have all played a role in raising the ceiling of the nba. Nobody has realized it's full potential yet. Closest is the spurs.
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Comparing eras is always difficult ... I think you have to look at the era as is and not try to extrapolate. If you say that a player today would be better than a player 30 years ago, and reasons that are cited are because of improved nutritional health, sports science, money, travel arrangements, etc., then I think you also have to consider that players in the past would also be better players IF they played in an era where that was the norm.
The game is completely different now for a number of reasons. One of the biggest is the emphasis and de-emphasis on post play. With defensive rules that allow more hybrid zone defenses, the ability to post has virtually vanished while all young bigs are busy trying to show that they can shoot 3's.
Anybody that would try to suggest that players like Magic, Bird, etc. wouldn't be successful in today's game because they weren't athletic enough, etc. are full of BS.
