Edgar Martinez and the Fallacy of WAR
Of course, the part that I find the most comical is that most forget that Edgar was actually a fairly strong 3B before his leg injuries got to the point where the Mariners management decided that it was in their best interest to keep him off the field to protect his legs and bat. Edgar not only had seasons where he was a positive WAR player defensively, but from a range factor standpoint, he was a Top 2-3 player in the league.
The other thing that I think is so comical when it comes to evaluating the DH types (whether it be Frank Thomas, Edgar, or David Ortiz) is that if there was no DH in place, each of these players would be playing 1B and remain on the field because of their bat.
Comments
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TL, DR summary: Edgar juiced.
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WAR
What is good for? -
Edgar should be in the hall of fame
.418 career OBP, enough said -
Except he juiced and there are better juicers not currently in. Good player. Not a hall of famer.dhdawg said:Edgar should be in the hall of fame
.418 career OBP, enough said -
You just said it yourself, at the later stage of his career, Edgar was a shit fielder, doesn't matter if due to injuries. And yes he probably juiced, and Bret Boone's 40hr season on the stuff has pretty much diminished anybody's numbers that have been accused of juicing.
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It's easy to have doubts about just about anybody that played in that era regarding steroids ...
The simple way to question Edgar regarding steroids is because he remained a strong hitter late into his 30s and that it took him until his late 20s to get into the big leagues.
However, unlike many of the supposed juicers of the era, Edgar's numbers remained relatively stable year over year as he was much more of a line drive hitter than he was a pure power hitter.
There's very few public comments that in any way, shape, or form that have ever directly connected Edgar with steroids.
About the only thing that would ever shock me with steroids is somebody saying that Griffey was on them. That being said, until there's evidence presented publicly that connects Edgar I think it's irresponsible to suggest he (or any other player in a similar position) was on the juice. Even a guy like Jeff Bagwell, who I think it's far easier to make that leap of usage with based on his numbers, change in body structure, etc. is difficult IMO to really throw claims of usage about when there's no direct evidence to tie the player with performance enhancing drugs.
And regardless, countless of players in that era were using. Those that are willing to throw those that have never been tied into using (at least not publicly) into the discussions of having used must also consider that there would also be numerous other players who they are not even suspecting used. In that regard, it's hard to play the moral police by trying to figure out who was or wasn't clean. It's an absolute dangerous slope to walk when it comes to that regard. -
Edgar was pretty open about using creatine. I remember reading all about it in the paper. Mark McGwire tried to throw people off doing the same thing. Edgar juiced, added no value as a fielder, and didn't reach the 3,000 hits or 500 HR's. 3,000 or 500 has typically been the criteria for getting in.Tequilla said:It's easy to have doubts about just about anybody that played in that era regarding steroids ...
The simple way to question Edgar regarding steroids is because he remained a strong hitter late into his 30s and that it took him until his late 20s to get into the big leagues.
However, unlike many of the supposed juicers of the era, Edgar's numbers remained relatively stable year over year as he was much more of a line drive hitter than he was a pure power hitter.
There's very few public comments that in any way, shape, or form that have ever directly connected Edgar with steroids.
About the only thing that would ever shock me with steroids is somebody saying that Griffey was on them. That being said, until there's evidence presented publicly that connects Edgar I think it's irresponsible to suggest he (or any other player in a similar position) was on the juice. Even a guy like Jeff Bagwell, who I think it's far easier to make that leap of usage with based on his numbers, change in body structure, etc. is difficult IMO to really throw claims of usage about when there's no direct evidence to tie the player with performance enhancing drugs.
And regardless, countless of players in that era were using. Those that are willing to throw those that have never been tied into using (at least not publicly) into the discussions of having used must also consider that there would also be numerous other players who they are not even suspecting used. In that regard, it's hard to play the moral police by trying to figure out who was or wasn't clean. It's an absolute dangerous slope to walk when it comes to that regard. -
If that was true, there would only be like 50 guys in the HoF.RoadDawg55 said:
Edgar was pretty open about using creatine. I remember reading all about it in the paper. Mark McGwire tried to throw people off doing the same thing. Edgar juiced, added no value as a fielder, and didn't reach the 3,000 hits or 500 HR's. 3,000 or 500 has typically been the criteria for getting in.Tequilla said:It's easy to have doubts about just about anybody that played in that era regarding steroids ...
The simple way to question Edgar regarding steroids is because he remained a strong hitter late into his 30s and that it took him until his late 20s to get into the big leagues.
However, unlike many of the supposed juicers of the era, Edgar's numbers remained relatively stable year over year as he was much more of a line drive hitter than he was a pure power hitter.
There's very few public comments that in any way, shape, or form that have ever directly connected Edgar with steroids.
About the only thing that would ever shock me with steroids is somebody saying that Griffey was on them. That being said, until there's evidence presented publicly that connects Edgar I think it's irresponsible to suggest he (or any other player in a similar position) was on the juice. Even a guy like Jeff Bagwell, who I think it's far easier to make that leap of usage with based on his numbers, change in body structure, etc. is difficult IMO to really throw claims of usage about when there's no direct evidence to tie the player with performance enhancing drugs.
And regardless, countless of players in that era were using. Those that are willing to throw those that have never been tied into using (at least not publicly) into the discussions of having used must also consider that there would also be numerous other players who they are not even suspecting used. In that regard, it's hard to play the moral police by trying to figure out who was or wasn't clean. It's an absolute dangerous slope to walk when it comes to that regard. -
Fuck the DH rule.
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So you're conclusion of Edgar being a juicer is that he was open about taking an over the counter supplement in creatine that could be found at your local GNC (both then and today) and that because Mark McGwire used creatine that therefore it was a common masking for anybody using steroids.RoadDawg55 said:
Edgar was pretty open about using creatine. I remember reading all about it in the paper. Mark McGwire tried to throw people off doing the same thing. Edgar juiced, added no value as a fielder, and didn't reach the 3,000 hits or 500 HR's. 3,000 or 500 has typically been the criteria for getting in.Tequilla said:It's easy to have doubts about just about anybody that played in that era regarding steroids ...
The simple way to question Edgar regarding steroids is because he remained a strong hitter late into his 30s and that it took him until his late 20s to get into the big leagues.
However, unlike many of the supposed juicers of the era, Edgar's numbers remained relatively stable year over year as he was much more of a line drive hitter than he was a pure power hitter.
There's very few public comments that in any way, shape, or form that have ever directly connected Edgar with steroids.
About the only thing that would ever shock me with steroids is somebody saying that Griffey was on them. That being said, until there's evidence presented publicly that connects Edgar I think it's irresponsible to suggest he (or any other player in a similar position) was on the juice. Even a guy like Jeff Bagwell, who I think it's far easier to make that leap of usage with based on his numbers, change in body structure, etc. is difficult IMO to really throw claims of usage about when there's no direct evidence to tie the player with performance enhancing drugs.
And regardless, countless of players in that era were using. Those that are willing to throw those that have never been tied into using (at least not publicly) into the discussions of having used must also consider that there would also be numerous other players who they are not even suspecting used. In that regard, it's hard to play the moral police by trying to figure out who was or wasn't clean. It's an absolute dangerous slope to walk when it comes to that regard.
I don't know how much you remember about the late 90s, but it seemed like everybody was trying to rush out to their local GNC finding ways to get ripped by taking supplement after supplement.
It would seem to me that that's very circumstantial evidence to tie someone to steroids.
Counting stats are ridiculous hallmarks in my opinion and don't measure the relative worth or value of a player. Voters would be highly encouraged in my view to vote for those that were the most influential in the game at a given point in time and not worry so much about what the statistics told. Over time, statistics can skew what you want to believe in a player. However, in the moment, you know who the best are. Important to keep that in mind IMO.
