Men's Hoops - Game #1 vs Baylor

Tequilla said:

greenblood said:

Tequilla said:

1) Some really lazy plays - Bey in the corner watching Baylor hustle was pretty bad

2) Zone defensive strategies really only work well against teams that can't shoot and/or make poor decisions when it comes to passing ... with shooting becoming more en vogue as a skill set, you see guys shooting more uncontested 25-30 footers that are effectively wide open as the zone isn't designed to stretch that far. If the zone does stretch that far it effectively falls apart behind it.

3) One thing I noticed last year and showed up in the highlights a few times is that one of the adjustments that Hop has made with the zones to the way the modern game is played with 3's and shooters is to extend to running people off the 3 point line and giving up the runners and mid-range shot that the Rockets have famously deprioritized in the game. Problem is that a lot of teams/players are starting to recognize the error in that logic and you're seeing more and more players embracing the relatively easy shots that come between the arc and the basket where the bigs really don't want to vacate.

Big picture, zones are really more momentum changing strategies at this point against teams/units that struggle to beat those types of defenses. As players become better and better shooters though you can't do anything other than really stay in their hip and limit their air space. A good shooter doesn't care if you give him an open 15 footer, 20 footer, 25 footer, or 30 footer ... if they know that they are going to be getting those shots they are going to be positioned to make them.

I wouldn't mind giving up 18-20 foot open jumps shots all game long. Those shots tend to be the least efficient in today's game. It becomes a problem though, when you are out rebounded 50-19. It doesn't matter how efficient the opposing shots are at that point.

One of the big weaknesses to a zone is the inability to box out and rebound ... which obviously showed in the numbers yesterday.

18-19 footers are obviously inefficient but those aren't the shots that are being given up. Chasing people off the line results in either side step 3's (which is honesty just a rhythm shot for a good shooter) or relocating into 10-15 footers that are effectively free throws or above for good shooters.

This is why I've always said that zones are easy to bust up for good offensive players and shooters because all of the shots that you get off the zone if you get it scrambling are effectively warm up jumpers in the gym.

Not trying to bag on Hop too much because this style of defense has had success in the past not only at UW but obviously Syracuse, but the game is shifting and Syracuse has struggled to have huge success lately (comparatively speaking). Running this kind of defense successfully has usually required long athletes that may or may not be strong offensive players. Today's game you can't be successful without the ability to score the ball. Hop's made some changes to bring in more shooters but I'm also not sure that the players he's brought in are players that are well suited to play the defense he wants to play.

greenblood said:

Tequilla said:

greenblood said:

Tequilla said:

1) Some really lazy plays - Bey in the corner watching Baylor hustle was pretty bad

2) Zone defensive strategies really only work well against teams that can't shoot and/or make poor decisions when it comes to passing ... with shooting becoming more en vogue as a skill set, you see guys shooting more uncontested 25-30 footers that are effectively wide open as the zone isn't designed to stretch that far. If the zone does stretch that far it effectively falls apart behind it.

3) One thing I noticed last year and showed up in the highlights a few times is that one of the adjustments that Hop has made with the zones to the way the modern game is played with 3's and shooters is to extend to running people off the 3 point line and giving up the runners and mid-range shot that the Rockets have famously deprioritized in the game. Problem is that a lot of teams/players are starting to recognize the error in that logic and you're seeing more and more players embracing the relatively easy shots that come between the arc and the basket where the bigs really don't want to vacate.

Big picture, zones are really more momentum changing strategies at this point against teams/units that struggle to beat those types of defenses. As players become better and better shooters though you can't do anything other than really stay in their hip and limit their air space. A good shooter doesn't care if you give him an open 15 footer, 20 footer, 25 footer, or 30 footer ... if they know that they are going to be getting those shots they are going to be positioned to make them.

I wouldn't mind giving up 18-20 foot open jumps shots all game long. Those shots tend to be the least efficient in today's game. It becomes a problem though, when you are out rebounded 50-19. It doesn't matter how efficient the opposing shots are at that point.

One of the big weaknesses to a zone is the inability to box out and rebound ... which obviously showed in the numbers yesterday.

18-19 footers are obviously inefficient but those aren't the shots that are being given up. Chasing people off the line results in either side step 3's (which is honesty just a rhythm shot for a good shooter) or relocating into 10-15 footers that are effectively free throws or above for good shooters.

This is why I've always said that zones are easy to bust up for good offensive players and shooters because all of the shots that you get off the zone if you get it scrambling are effectively warm up jumpers in the gym.

Not trying to bag on Hop too much because this style of defense has had success in the past not only at UW but obviously Syracuse, but the game is shifting and Syracuse has struggled to have huge success lately (comparatively speaking). Running this kind of defense successfully has usually required long athletes that may or may not be strong offensive players. Today's game you can't be successful without the ability to score the ball. Hop's made some changes to bring in more shooters but I'm also not sure that the players he's brought in are players that are well suited to play the defense he wants to play.

Altman tends to run a lot of matchup zone, and I've always been impressed with Oregon's defense. It's zone but with man to man principles. Does Hop do a matchup zone or is his just a base 2-3 or something similar? I didn't watch the Baylor game, I just saw the box score.