BBC News - How Bitcoin's vast energy use could burst its bubble

Mad_Son

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56215787

I do wonder if this actually could be the Achilles heel for bitcoin. A shared general ledger makes sense but the baked-in inefficiencies could be an issue unless miners start backing out, which could in turn destabilize the system. The thing is, I don't see how bitcoin can pivot to transition to something more steady state. The crypto to rule them all may not be bitcoin.

AtomicPiss

that article struck me as being driven by an agenda

Mad_Son

DerekJohnson said:

that article struck me as being driven by an agenda

How so? I don't actually wholly disagree. I certainly think the quote from Biden has an agenda (as I would expect from the leader of the country with the dominant global currency), but I think there are salient points in there about bitcoin specifically, as opposed to crypto in general, which would give me pause. When maintaining the general ledger becomes too expensive, then what?

AtomicPiss

Mad_Son said:

DerekJohnson said:

that article struck me as being driven by an agenda

How so? I don't actually wholly disagree. I certainly think the quote from Biden has an agenda (as I would expect from the leader of the country with the dominant global currency), but I think there are salient points in there about bitcoin specifically, as opposed to crypto in general, which would give me pause. When maintaining the general ledger becomes too expensive, then what?

There's just a certain tone that permeated the piece that felt like manipulation. My spidey sense kicked in. Just like when I read something from the Washington Post or NYT trying to manipulate politically.

PurpleThrobber

DerekJohnson said:

Mad_Son said:

DerekJohnson said:

that article struck me as being driven by an agenda

How so? I don't actually wholly disagree. I certainly think the quote from Biden has an agenda (as I would expect from the leader of the country with the dominant global currency), but I think there are salient points in there about bitcoin specifically, as opposed to crypto in general, which would give me pause. When maintaining the general ledger becomes too expensive, then what?

There's just a certain tone that permeated the piece that felt like manipulation. My spidey sense kicked in. Just like when I read something from the Washington Post or NYT trying to manipulate politically.

What bothers me about crypto - and i'm not all techie smart and shit on why my fear isn't just being alarmist - but the technology sits out there somewhere. And who's to say that decentralized network/ledger isn't somehow hacked or compromised? Or we all get on the bitcoin wagon only to realize it's been a scam to separate us from our gold or dollars and then they bait and switch and override the passwords?

Kind of @oregonblitzkrieg-esque, I know - but god knows how many hacks do we see in a year? The Throbber is still not over Macho Grande or Adult Friend Finder getting hacked.

HoustonHusky

Didn’t read, but considering most is mined in China it’s just another reason they are laughing at the stupidity of the West.

creepycoug

PurpleThrobber said:

DerekJohnson said:

Mad_Son said:

DerekJohnson said:

that article struck me as being driven by an agenda

How so? I don't actually wholly disagree. I certainly think the quote from Biden has an agenda (as I would expect from the leader of the country with the dominant global currency), but I think there are salient points in there about bitcoin specifically, as opposed to crypto in general, which would give me pause. When maintaining the general ledger becomes too expensive, then what?

There's just a certain tone that permeated the piece that felt like manipulation. My spidey sense kicked in. Just like when I read something from the Washington Post or NYT trying to manipulate politically.

What bothers me about crypto - and i'm not all techie smart and shit on why my fear isn't just being alarmist - but the technology sits out there somewhere. And who's to say that decentralized network/ledger isn't somehow hacked or compromised? Or we all get on the bitcoin wagon only to realize it's been a scam to separate us from our gold or dollars and then they bait and switch and override the passwords?

Kind of @oregonblitzkrieg-esque, I know - but god knows how many hacks do we see in a year? The Throbber is still not over Macho Grande or Adult Friend Finder getting hacked.

Not alarmist at all IMO. And @HoustonHusky gives me yet another reason to be wary. I didn't know most of it was "manufactured" in China.

Like Dave says in Stalin's video. If you don't understand it (and I don't), don't throw money at it.

@backthepack what say you Fudgie?

PurpleThrobber

creepycoug said:

PurpleThrobber said:

DerekJohnson said:

Mad_Son said:

DerekJohnson said:

that article struck me as being driven by an agenda

How so? I don't actually wholly disagree. I certainly think the quote from Biden has an agenda (as I would expect from the leader of the country with the dominant global currency), but I think there are salient points in there about bitcoin specifically, as opposed to crypto in general, which would give me pause. When maintaining the general ledger becomes too expensive, then what?

There's just a certain tone that permeated the piece that felt like manipulation. My spidey sense kicked in. Just like when I read something from the Washington Post or NYT trying to manipulate politically.

What bothers me about crypto - and i'm not all techie smart and shit on why my fear isn't just being alarmist - but the technology sits out there somewhere. And who's to say that decentralized network/ledger isn't somehow hacked or compromised? Or we all get on the bitcoin wagon only to realize it's been a scam to separate us from our gold or dollars and then they bait and switch and override the passwords?

Kind of @oregonblitzkrieg-esque, I know - but god knows how many hacks do we see in a year? The Throbber is still not over Macho Grande or Adult Friend Finder getting hacked.

Not alarmist at all IMO. And @HoustonHusky gives me yet another reason to be wary. I didn't know most of it was "manufactured" in China.

Like Dave says in Stalin's video. If you don't understand it (and I don't), don't throw money at it.

@backthepack what say you Fudgie?

If I totalled up all the time I've spent watching documentaries and reading blogs and prospectuses and shit on crypto, it would make you cry.

I still don't have comfort with it. Until I can go to Albertsons and buy a loaf of bread with it, it feels like a scam. The Throbber does not like being scammed.

The tulip futures analogy a few days ago made total sense to me with regards to crypto currency.

Pitchfork51

DerekJohnson said:

Mad_Son said:

DerekJohnson said:

that article struck me as being driven by an agenda

How so? I don't actually wholly disagree. I certainly think the quote from Biden has an agenda (as I would expect from the leader of the country with the dominant global currency), but I think there are salient points in there about bitcoin specifically, as opposed to crypto in general, which would give me pause. When maintaining the general ledger becomes too expensive, then what?

There's just a certain tone that permeated the piece that felt like manipulation. My spidey sense kicked in. Just like when I read something from the Washington Post or NYT trying to manipulate politically.

Well its either that or be a racist. So do you support a white ethnostate?

Pitchfork51

PurpleThrobber said:

creepycoug said:

PurpleThrobber said:

DerekJohnson said:

Mad_Son said:

DerekJohnson said:

that article struck me as being driven by an agenda

How so? I don't actually wholly disagree. I certainly think the quote from Biden has an agenda (as I would expect from the leader of the country with the dominant global currency), but I think there are salient points in there about bitcoin specifically, as opposed to crypto in general, which would give me pause. When maintaining the general ledger becomes too expensive, then what?

There's just a certain tone that permeated the piece that felt like manipulation. My spidey sense kicked in. Just like when I read something from the Washington Post or NYT trying to manipulate politically.

What bothers me about crypto - and i'm not all techie smart and shit on why my fear isn't just being alarmist - but the technology sits out there somewhere. And who's to say that decentralized network/ledger isn't somehow hacked or compromised? Or we all get on the bitcoin wagon only to realize it's been a scam to separate us from our gold or dollars and then they bait and switch and override the passwords?

Kind of @oregonblitzkrieg-esque, I know - but god knows how many hacks do we see in a year? The Throbber is still not over Macho Grande or Adult Friend Finder getting hacked.

Not alarmist at all IMO. And @HoustonHusky gives me yet another reason to be wary. I didn't know most of it was "manufactured" in China.

Like Dave says in Stalin's video. If you don't understand it (and I don't), don't throw money at it.

@backthepack what say you Fudgie?

If I totalled up all the time I've spent watching documentaries and reading blogs and prospectuses and shit on crypto, it would make you cry.

I still don't have comfort with it. Until I can go to Albertsons and buy a loaf of bread with it, it feels like a scam. The Throbber does not like being scammed.

The tulip futures analogy a few days ago made total sense to me with regards to crypto currency.

I get how it works. But I dont get how you actually sell it.

BuffBuffPass

Bitcoin's energy use is what secures it. It's also a great use of otherwise wasted energy, from hydropower that goes unused in remote regions to the oil/gas industry using it rather than flaring off excess. If proof of stake proves to be superior, Bitcoin can switch to that.

oregonblitzkrieg

The BBC is the British equivalent of Faux News/CNN/MSLSD.

The Central Banks hate bitcoin. It appears they'll be using their henchman, the MSM and the Climate Change Nazis, to push the "Bitcoin uses top much fossil fuels" angle to try to stop the unraveling of the Rothschild CB System.

UWerentThereMan

Energy is the security of Bitcoin. The more miners fighting to mint blocks, and nodes verifying blocks, the more secure the blockchain is from cheaters. I’m no expert, just been reading up lately on it; I’ve heard it compared to the US dollar being secured by the military. Without that security, oil isn’t traded in US dollars. Without the world trading on US dollar, the value of the money would plummet.

There are Bitcoin mining companies like Great American Mining (https://gam.ai/) that setup near natural gas mining sites to buy the flare gas for energy to mine Bitcoin. These natural gas sites are far from populous areas where there isn’t a real use for that gas and they’re putting the otherwise wasted flare offs to a profitable use. Also pretty cool, the Bitcoin miners aren’t using large data centers to run their rigs; these are mobile platforms that can move to new sites with the energy source.

Edit: what buffbuffpass said

PurpleThrobber

UWerentThereMan said:

Energy is the security of Bitcoin. The more miners fighting to mint blocks, and nodes verifying blocks, the more secure the blockchain is from cheaters. I’m no expert, just been reading up lately on it; I’ve heard it compared to the US dollar being secured by the military. Without that security, oil isn’t traded in US dollars. Without the world trading on US dollar, the value of the money would plummet.

There are Bitcoin mining companies like Great American Mining (https://gam.ai/) that setup near natural gas mining sites to buy the flare gas for energy to mine Bitcoin. These natural gas sites are far from populous areas where there isn’t a real use for that gas and they’re putting the otherwise wasted flare offs to a profitable use. Also pretty cool, the Bitcoin miners aren’t using large data centers to run their rigs; these are mobile platforms that can move to new sites with the energy source.

Edit: what buffbuffpass said

Jay Chinslee just pretty much banned natural gas in the State of Washington. But but global warming - riiiiight.

If people don't think politics and economics are essentially one and the same, they are daft.

TTTTT, I know.

Mad_Son

BuffBuffPass said:

Bitcoin's energy use is what secures it. It's also a great use of otherwise wasted energy, from hydropower that goes unused in remote regions to the oil/gas industry using it rather than flaring off excess. If proof of stake proves to be superior, Bitcoin can switch to that.

Proof of work is only good insofar as you have energy to burn. As @HoustonHusky noted, China is doing a lot of mining now a days. Proof of stake certainly has its own issues, but saying that using gas that would otherwise be flared makes this a good system doesn't make sense to me. That isn't scalable and having a financial system based on having excess, unusable energy doesn't strike me as stable long term.

You mention switching to proof of state as an option - but that is what I mean by saying I'm not sure how they pivot. I am not sure how you cut over. Freeze the currency and tell everyone to get a new core? That sounds easier said than done to me.

Mad_Son

PurpleThrobber said:

UWerentThereMan said:

Energy is the security of Bitcoin. The more miners fighting to mint blocks, and nodes verifying blocks, the more secure the blockchain is from cheaters. I’m no expert, just been reading up lately on it; I’ve heard it compared to the US dollar being secured by the military. Without that security, oil isn’t traded in US dollars. Without the world trading on US dollar, the value of the money would plummet.

There are Bitcoin mining companies like Great American Mining (https://gam.ai/) that setup near natural gas mining sites to buy the flare gas for energy to mine Bitcoin. These natural gas sites are far from populous areas where there isn’t a real use for that gas and they’re putting the otherwise wasted flare offs to a profitable use. Also pretty cool, the Bitcoin miners aren’t using large data centers to run their rigs; these are mobile platforms that can move to new sites with the energy source.

Edit: what buffbuffpass said

Jay Chinslee just pretty much banned natural gas in the State of Washington. But but global warming - riiiiight.

If people don't think politics and economics are essentially one and the same, they are daft.

TTTTT, I know.

Global warming is a fact. Take your conspiracy theories to the Tug.

creepycoug

Mad_Son said:

PurpleThrobber said:

UWerentThereMan said:

Energy is the security of Bitcoin. The more miners fighting to mint blocks, and nodes verifying blocks, the more secure the blockchain is from cheaters. I’m no expert, just been reading up lately on it; I’ve heard it compared to the US dollar being secured by the military. Without that security, oil isn’t traded in US dollars. Without the world trading on US dollar, the value of the money would plummet.

There are Bitcoin mining companies like Great American Mining (https://gam.ai/) that setup near natural gas mining sites to buy the flare gas for energy to mine Bitcoin. These natural gas sites are far from populous areas where there isn’t a real use for that gas and they’re putting the otherwise wasted flare offs to a profitable use. Also pretty cool, the Bitcoin miners aren’t using large data centers to run their rigs; these are mobile platforms that can move to new sites with the energy source.

Edit: what buffbuffpass said

Jay Chinslee just pretty much banned natural gas in the State of Washington. But but global warming - riiiiight.

If people don't think politics and economics are essentially one and the same, they are daft.

TTTTT, I know.

Global warming is a fact. Take your conspiracy theories to the Tug.

The question is if human release of carbon is really moving the needle, or if the earth goes through cycles. Is the science settled on that point?

IDK, but I know the entire world is going after carbon-neutral with a hard-on. I had no idea Formula 1 was using hybrid power units and is aiming for carbon neutrality by 2030.

Mad_Son

creepycoug said:

Mad_Son said:

PurpleThrobber said:

UWerentThereMan said:

Energy is the security of Bitcoin. The more miners fighting to mint blocks, and nodes verifying blocks, the more secure the blockchain is from cheaters. I’m no expert, just been reading up lately on it; I’ve heard it compared to the US dollar being secured by the military. Without that security, oil isn’t traded in US dollars. Without the world trading on US dollar, the value of the money would plummet.

There are Bitcoin mining companies like Great American Mining (https://gam.ai/) that setup near natural gas mining sites to buy the flare gas for energy to mine Bitcoin. These natural gas sites are far from populous areas where there isn’t a real use for that gas and they’re putting the otherwise wasted flare offs to a profitable use. Also pretty cool, the Bitcoin miners aren’t using large data centers to run their rigs; these are mobile platforms that can move to new sites with the energy source.

Edit: what buffbuffpass said

Jay Chinslee just pretty much banned natural gas in the State of Washington. But but global warming - riiiiight.

If people don't think politics and economics are essentially one and the same, they are daft.

TTTTT, I know.

Global warming is a fact. Take your conspiracy theories to the Tug.

The question is if human release of carbon is really moving the needle, or if the earth goes through cycles. Is the science settled on that point?

IDK, but I know the entire world is going after carbon-neutral with a hard-on. I had no idea Formula 1 was using hybrid power units and is aiming for carbon neutrality by 2030.

The science is settled. We understand milankovitch cycles. The human overprint is large and obvious.

PurpleThrobber

Mad_Son said:

PurpleThrobber said:

UWerentThereMan said:

Energy is the security of Bitcoin. The more miners fighting to mint blocks, and nodes verifying blocks, the more secure the blockchain is from cheaters. I’m no expert, just been reading up lately on it; I’ve heard it compared to the US dollar being secured by the military. Without that security, oil isn’t traded in US dollars. Without the world trading on US dollar, the value of the money would plummet.

There are Bitcoin mining companies like Great American Mining (https://gam.ai/) that setup near natural gas mining sites to buy the flare gas for energy to mine Bitcoin. These natural gas sites are far from populous areas where there isn’t a real use for that gas and they’re putting the otherwise wasted flare offs to a profitable use. Also pretty cool, the Bitcoin miners aren’t using large data centers to run their rigs; these are mobile platforms that can move to new sites with the energy source.

Edit: what buffbuffpass said

Jay Chinslee just pretty much banned natural gas in the State of Washington. But but global warming - riiiiight.

If people don't think politics and economics are essentially one and the same, they are daft.

TTTTT, I know.

Global warming is a fact. Take your conspiracy theories to the Tug.

It's known as "climate change' this time around on the grift.

Natural gas is about as 'clean' as it gets right now.

You do understand that 'clean' energy requires massive amounts of extraction of things like lithium and silver and other metals, right?

Mad_Son

PurpleThrobber said:

Mad_Son said:

PurpleThrobber said:

UWerentThereMan said:

Energy is the security of Bitcoin. The more miners fighting to mint blocks, and nodes verifying blocks, the more secure the blockchain is from cheaters. I’m no expert, just been reading up lately on it; I’ve heard it compared to the US dollar being secured by the military. Without that security, oil isn’t traded in US dollars. Without the world trading on US dollar, the value of the money would plummet.

There are Bitcoin mining companies like Great American Mining (https://gam.ai/) that setup near natural gas mining sites to buy the flare gas for energy to mine Bitcoin. These natural gas sites are far from populous areas where there isn’t a real use for that gas and they’re putting the otherwise wasted flare offs to a profitable use. Also pretty cool, the Bitcoin miners aren’t using large data centers to run their rigs; these are mobile platforms that can move to new sites with the energy source.

Edit: what buffbuffpass said

Jay Chinslee just pretty much banned natural gas in the State of Washington. But but global warming - riiiiight.

If people don't think politics and economics are essentially one and the same, they are daft.

TTTTT, I know.

Global warming is a fact. Take your conspiracy theories to the Tug.

It's known as "climate change' this time around on the grift.

Natural gas is about as 'clean' as it gets right now.

You do understand that 'clean' energy requires massive amounts of extraction of things like lithium and silver and other metals, right?

I do understand that. Thank you for asking. That's not relevant to the fact that anthropogenic global warming is real. That in and of itself is only indirectly relevant to the energy usage component of bitcoin. If you can tie that to a public demand to decrease energy consumption which might inhibit bitcoin in some way, then I'd love to hear your contribution.

HoustonHusky

Mad_Son said:

creepycoug said:

Mad_Son said:

PurpleThrobber said:

UWerentThereMan said:

Energy is the security of Bitcoin. The more miners fighting to mint blocks, and nodes verifying blocks, the more secure the blockchain is from cheaters. I’m no expert, just been reading up lately on it; I’ve heard it compared to the US dollar being secured by the military. Without that security, oil isn’t traded in US dollars. Without the world trading on US dollar, the value of the money would plummet.

There are Bitcoin mining companies like Great American Mining (https://gam.ai/) that setup near natural gas mining sites to buy the flare gas for energy to mine Bitcoin. These natural gas sites are far from populous areas where there isn’t a real use for that gas and they’re putting the otherwise wasted flare offs to a profitable use. Also pretty cool, the Bitcoin miners aren’t using large data centers to run their rigs; these are mobile platforms that can move to new sites with the energy source.

Edit: what buffbuffpass said

Jay Chinslee just pretty much banned natural gas in the State of Washington. But but global warming - riiiiight.

If people don't think politics and economics are essentially one and the same, they are daft.

TTTTT, I know.

Global warming is a fact. Take your conspiracy theories to the Tug.

The question is if human release of carbon is really moving the needle, or if the earth goes through cycles. Is the science settled on that point?

IDK, but I know the entire world is going after carbon-neutral with a hard-on. I had no idea Formula 1 was using hybrid power units and is aiming for carbon neutrality by 2030.

The science is settled. We understand milankovitch cycles. The human overprint is large and obvious.

We understand it so much that all of our models have been utterly wrong. Heck, we recently just found that all of the satellite measured CO2 radiation data has been well under even the most optimistic predictions...in normal times that would be good news but because it goes against the narrative it’s ignored.

Think of it this way...the atmosphere is on average somewhat around 2% water...a gas that absorbs more greatly across the infrared spectrum than CO2. Meanwhile CO2 is measured in parts per million. Even the models admit direct changes in CO2 aren’t enough to move the needle significantly, so the models have multiplier effects (increase in CO2 cause x to happen, x causes more warming...now we get severe temperature rise). Unfortunately for the fear mongers and fortunately for the world these models have failed miserably in predicting anything since they started this in the 1990s.

The statistic fraud of the “historical” temperature is an entirely different beast...as a good example Michael Mann is nothing more than a charlatan. And I’m still looking for a good explanation as to how the pre-1970 historical temperature record changed between the 1980s and 1990s...it’s almost as if it’s magic.

Or a religion.