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The Russians

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  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 33,796
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    dnc said:

    Mosster47 said:

    At bottom of Kremlin's neurotic view of world affairs is traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity. Originally, this was insecurity of a peaceful agricultural people trying to live on vast exposed plain in neighborhood of fierce nomadic peoples. To this was added, as Russia came into contact with economically advanced West, fear of more competent, more powerful, more highly organized societies in that area. But this latter type of insecurity was one which afflicted rather Russian rulers than Russian people; for Russian rulers have invariably sensed that their rule was relatively archaic in form fragile and artificial in its psychological foundation, unable to stand comparison or contact with political systems of Western countries. For this reason they have always feared foreign penetration, feared direct contact between Western world and their own, feared what would happen if Russians learned truth about world without or if foreigners learned truth about world within. And they have learned to seek security only in patient but deadly struggle for total destruction of rival power, never in compacts and compromises with it. - George Kennan, 1946

    Sounds like Cuogs to me.

    Or Quooks. The Ruskies have always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the traditional great powers.
    Washington isn't a great power, first off.

    Second, I've always wondered how the world would have reacted if the Germans and the Japanese just decided to go after Russia first and left everyone else alone.

    I get the feeling the rest of the planet would have given a collective "meh" while it unfolded.
    Gone meh? We? probably would have supported it, at least covertly. The red scare/Cold War wasn't in full effect by any means but there was no love in the west for Soviet Russia. We? would have gladly accelerated their collapse.
    Conflict in the Pacific against an expansionist, imperial Japan was still probably chinevitable.
    I think that's debatable. Remember, a lot of the Japanese leadership thought going 1941 that a war again the US was un-winnable, but that it was still better to roll the dice and possible suffer defeat, than to accept the having to bow to US pressure because of oil. In alternate scenarios I think it's possible they would have wanted to avoid awaking the sleeping purple giant at all costs.
  • BearsWiinBearsWiin Member Posts: 4,947
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    Mosster47 said:

    At bottom of Kremlin's neurotic view of world affairs is traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity. Originally, this was insecurity of a peaceful agricultural people trying to live on vast exposed plain in neighborhood of fierce nomadic peoples. To this was added, as Russia came into contact with economically advanced West, fear of more competent, more powerful, more highly organized societies in that area. But this latter type of insecurity was one which afflicted rather Russian rulers than Russian people; for Russian rulers have invariably sensed that their rule was relatively archaic in form fragile and artificial in its psychological foundation, unable to stand comparison or contact with political systems of Western countries. For this reason they have always feared foreign penetration, feared direct contact between Western world and their own, feared what would happen if Russians learned truth about world without or if foreigners learned truth about world within. And they have learned to seek security only in patient but deadly struggle for total destruction of rival power, never in compacts and compromises with it. - George Kennan, 1946

    Sounds like Cuogs to me.

    Or Quooks. The Ruskies have always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the traditional great powers.
    Washington isn't a great power, first off.

    Second, I've always wondered how the world would have reacted if the Germans and the Japanese just decided to go after Russia first and left everyone else alone.

    I get the feeling the rest of the planet would have given a collective "meh" while it unfolded.
    We are the 2nd greatest power in the West and USC really respects us more than Oregon or UCLA.

    Second, yes, this is a very interesting counterfactual. People forget that the Russians and Japanese did fight a tuff little war in 1939 before the European war got under way and the Russians won (pay back for 1905 I reckon). Obviously to get to Russia, Germany had to conquer Poland first and we know that when they did this French and British declared war, but then proceeded to do nothing but sit behind the Maginot Line. Would they have decided to attack Nazi Germany at some point if Hitler had never decided to invade the West? Who knows?

    I can't imagine that in the event both Japan and Germany invaded the USSR in 1941 Roosevelt would have cut off Japan's supply of US oil. We might very well have gone "meh".
    Fear of a Japanese attack on the Soviet Far East in late 1941 is precisely why FDR had Acheson put the Japanese oil embargo in place in August. He understood that a Eurasian continent divided between fascist Germany and imperialist Japan would be absolutely disastrous for the United States.
  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 33,796
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    BearsWiin said:

    Mosster47 said:

    At bottom of Kremlin's neurotic view of world affairs is traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity. Originally, this was insecurity of a peaceful agricultural people trying to live on vast exposed plain in neighborhood of fierce nomadic peoples. To this was added, as Russia came into contact with economically advanced West, fear of more competent, more powerful, more highly organized societies in that area. But this latter type of insecurity was one which afflicted rather Russian rulers than Russian people; for Russian rulers have invariably sensed that their rule was relatively archaic in form fragile and artificial in its psychological foundation, unable to stand comparison or contact with political systems of Western countries. For this reason they have always feared foreign penetration, feared direct contact between Western world and their own, feared what would happen if Russians learned truth about world without or if foreigners learned truth about world within. And they have learned to seek security only in patient but deadly struggle for total destruction of rival power, never in compacts and compromises with it. - George Kennan, 1946

    Sounds like Cuogs to me.

    Or Quooks. The Ruskies have always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the traditional great powers.
    Washington isn't a great power, first off.

    Second, I've always wondered how the world would have reacted if the Germans and the Japanese just decided to go after Russia first and left everyone else alone.

    I get the feeling the rest of the planet would have given a collective "meh" while it unfolded.
    We are the 2nd greatest power in the West and USC really respects us more than Oregon or UCLA.

    Second, yes, this is a very interesting counterfactual. People forget that the Russians and Japanese did fight a tuff little war in 1939 before the European war got under way and the Russians won (pay back for 1905 I reckon). Obviously to get to Russia, Germany had to conquer Poland first and we know that when they did this French and British declared war, but then proceeded to do nothing but sit behind the Maginot Line. Would they have decided to attack Nazi Germany at some point if Hitler had never decided to invade the West? Who knows?

    I can't imagine that in the event both Japan and Germany invaded the USSR in 1941 Roosevelt would have cut off Japan's supply of US oil. We might very well have gone "meh".
    Fear of a Japanese attack on the Soviet Far East in late 1941 is precisely why FDR had Acheson put the Japanese oil embargo in place in August. He understood that a Eurasian continent divided between fascist Germany and imperialist Japan would be absolutely disastrous for the United States.
    True. And Roosevelt certainly did everything he could at the time in terms of economic warfare to bait Japan into taking sucker punching us?. But what if the Japanese had decided to take the risk of focusing solely on securing their raw materials in the Dutch East Indies and not preemptively attacking HI and the Philippines? Would we? have still found a way to declare war on Imperial Japan regardless?
  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 33,796
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    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    It's less stressful to not worry about it an live in the passed, Salem Kewger.
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 41,658
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    BearsWiin said:

    Mosster47 said:

    At bottom of Kremlin's neurotic view of world affairs is traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity. Originally, this was insecurity of a peaceful agricultural people trying to live on vast exposed plain in neighborhood of fierce nomadic peoples. To this was added, as Russia came into contact with economically advanced West, fear of more competent, more powerful, more highly organized societies in that area. But this latter type of insecurity was one which afflicted rather Russian rulers than Russian people; for Russian rulers have invariably sensed that their rule was relatively archaic in form fragile and artificial in its psychological foundation, unable to stand comparison or contact with political systems of Western countries. For this reason they have always feared foreign penetration, feared direct contact between Western world and their own, feared what would happen if Russians learned truth about world without or if foreigners learned truth about world within. And they have learned to seek security only in patient but deadly struggle for total destruction of rival power, never in compacts and compromises with it. - George Kennan, 1946

    Sounds like Cuogs to me.

    Or Quooks. The Ruskies have always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the traditional great powers.
    Washington isn't a great power, first off.

    Second, I've always wondered how the world would have reacted if the Germans and the Japanese just decided to go after Russia first and left everyone else alone.

    I get the feeling the rest of the planet would have given a collective "meh" while it unfolded.
    We are the 2nd greatest power in the West and USC really respects us more than Oregon or UCLA.

    Second, yes, this is a very interesting counterfactual. People forget that the Russians and Japanese did fight a tuff little war in 1939 before the European war got under way and the Russians won (pay back for 1905 I reckon). Obviously to get to Russia, Germany had to conquer Poland first and we know that when they did this French and British declared war, but then proceeded to do nothing but sit behind the Maginot Line. Would they have decided to attack Nazi Germany at some point if Hitler had never decided to invade the West? Who knows?

    I can't imagine that in the event both Japan and Germany invaded the USSR in 1941 Roosevelt would have cut off Japan's supply of US oil. We might very well have gone "meh".
    Fear of a Japanese attack on the Soviet Far East in late 1941 is precisely why FDR had Acheson put the Japanese oil embargo in place in August. He understood that a Eurasian continent divided between fascist Germany and imperialist Japan would be absolutely disastrous for the United States.
    The Japs were still reeling from getting their ass handed to them by Zhukov in '39, too. They wanted no part of that shit again. Hitler already had conquered the Netherlands so the Japs headed south to grab their oil in the E. Indies instead.

  • Mosster47Mosster47 Member Posts: 6,246
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    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 41,658
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    Mosster47 said:

    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
    We're? doing a pretty good job of disabling our own infrastructure and power grid through general malaise, choosing shit like wind and solar over nuclear plants and abundant fossil alternatives.

  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 33,796
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    Mosster47 said:

    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
    Were they "shocked" and "awed" ?
  • Mosster47Mosster47 Member Posts: 6,246
    First Anniversary 5 Awesomes 5 Up Votes First Comment

    Mosster47 said:

    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
    Were they "shocked" and "awed" ?
    I got there 12 years later. They definitely didn't rebuild.
  • ThomasFremontThomasFremont Member Posts: 13,325
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    Mosster47 said:

    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
    We're? doing a pretty good job of disabling our own infrastructure and power grid through general malaise, choosing shit like wind and solar over nuclear plants and abundant fossil alternatives.

    You had me until you blamed wind and solar.
  • ThomasFremontThomasFremont Member Posts: 13,325
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    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    Infrastructure week is going swimmingly!
  • KaepskneeKaepsknee Member Posts: 14,750
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    Mosster47 said:

    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
    We're? doing a pretty good job of disabling our own infrastructure and power grid through general malaise, choosing shit like wind and solar over nuclear plants and abundant fossil alternatives.

    You had me until you blamed wind and solar.
    Wind wreaks havoc on power grids. When it is ever used anyway.
  • ThomasFremontThomasFremont Member Posts: 13,325
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Up Votes 5 Awesomes
    salemcoog said:


    Mosster47 said:

    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
    We're? doing a pretty good job of disabling our own infrastructure and power grid through general malaise, choosing shit like wind and solar over nuclear plants and abundant fossil alternatives.

    You had me until you blamed wind and solar.
    Wind wreaks havoc on power grids. When it is ever used anyway.
    You’re obviously not a sailboat captain
  • SquirtSquirt Member Posts: 485
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    You all need to quit living in the past.
  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 33,796
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    Swaye's Wigwam

    salemcoog said:


    Mosster47 said:

    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
    We're? doing a pretty good job of disabling our own infrastructure and power grid through general malaise, choosing shit like wind and solar over nuclear plants and abundant fossil alternatives.

    You had me until you blamed wind and solar.
    Wind wreaks havoc on power grids. When it is ever used anyway.
    You’re obviously not a sailboat captain
    I'm not a sailboat captain, but my best fren is.
  • BearsWiinBearsWiin Member Posts: 4,947
    First Anniversary 5 Up Votes 5 Awesomes First Comment

    BearsWiin said:

    Mosster47 said:

    At bottom of Kremlin's neurotic view of world affairs is traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity. Originally, this was insecurity of a peaceful agricultural people trying to live on vast exposed plain in neighborhood of fierce nomadic peoples. To this was added, as Russia came into contact with economically advanced West, fear of more competent, more powerful, more highly organized societies in that area. But this latter type of insecurity was one which afflicted rather Russian rulers than Russian people; for Russian rulers have invariably sensed that their rule was relatively archaic in form fragile and artificial in its psychological foundation, unable to stand comparison or contact with political systems of Western countries. For this reason they have always feared foreign penetration, feared direct contact between Western world and their own, feared what would happen if Russians learned truth about world without or if foreigners learned truth about world within. And they have learned to seek security only in patient but deadly struggle for total destruction of rival power, never in compacts and compromises with it. - George Kennan, 1946

    Sounds like Cuogs to me.

    Or Quooks. The Ruskies have always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the traditional great powers.
    Washington isn't a great power, first off.

    Second, I've always wondered how the world would have reacted if the Germans and the Japanese just decided to go after Russia first and left everyone else alone.

    I get the feeling the rest of the planet would have given a collective "meh" while it unfolded.
    We are the 2nd greatest power in the West and USC really respects us more than Oregon or UCLA.

    Second, yes, this is a very interesting counterfactual. People forget that the Russians and Japanese did fight a tuff little war in 1939 before the European war got under way and the Russians won (pay back for 1905 I reckon). Obviously to get to Russia, Germany had to conquer Poland first and we know that when they did this French and British declared war, but then proceeded to do nothing but sit behind the Maginot Line. Would they have decided to attack Nazi Germany at some point if Hitler had never decided to invade the West? Who knows?

    I can't imagine that in the event both Japan and Germany invaded the USSR in 1941 Roosevelt would have cut off Japan's supply of US oil. We might very well have gone "meh".
    Fear of a Japanese attack on the Soviet Far East in late 1941 is precisely why FDR had Acheson put the Japanese oil embargo in place in August. He understood that a Eurasian continent divided between fascist Germany and imperialist Japan would be absolutely disastrous for the United States.
    True. And Roosevelt certainly did everything he could at the time in terms of economic warfare to bait Japan into taking sucker punching us?. But what if the Japanese had decided to take the risk of focusing solely on securing their raw materials in the Dutch East Indies and not preemptively attacking HI and the Philippines? Would we? have still found a way to declare war on Imperial Japan regardless?
    No
  • SquirtSquirt Member Posts: 485
    5 Awesomes 5 Up Votes First Comment Name Dropper
    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    Yup...

    Russians Have Learned How to Hack Power Grids (Bloomberg)

    Hackers Gain Direct Access to US Power Grid Controls (Wired)

    Cyberattacks Put Russian Fingers on the Switch at Power Plants, U.S. Says (NYT)
  • PurpleThrobberPurpleThrobber Member Posts: 41,658
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Awesomes 5 Up Votes


    Mosster47 said:

    salemcoog said:

    Most of you need to fast forward past 75 years ago to the here and now. Russia, China, NK, none of them will lay a foot on our soil until they’ve either hacked our power grid or disabled it with an EMP or
    Both to shut it down. 15 years ago, terrorism was the main threat. Now it’s the disabling of power grids and infrastructure.

    All of Which makes this Russian hacking into our elections process Twice as egregious. And it’s why the people that have Their head buried up Trumps ass need to wake up. Our power grids are archaic and are mostly handled by hundreds of private entities. This country is done in 6 months if our power grids are disabled.

    Trump being a Pussy to Putin on this issue will embolden our most dangerous enemies in the here and now. Cyber warriors and the countries that employ them. Wake the fuck up people.

    This is true. Our Air Force goes in the order of power, water, communications, and eliminate infrastructure you don't control.

    Iraq went from modern to 6th century in 96 hours under this doctrine.
    We're? doing a pretty good job of disabling our own infrastructure and power grid through general malaise, choosing shit like wind and solar over nuclear plants and abundant fossil alternatives.

    You had me until you blamed wind and solar.
    Go look the Northeast- they've gone all in on wind and solar. They are scheduling rolling blackouts. Expensive and inefficient delivery method. It's not windy there and the sun doesn't shine all that much.

    https://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/01/iso_new_england_power_plants_f.html

    http://www.telegram.com/news/20180119/new-england-grid-operator-warns-of-rolling-blackouts-without-new-pipelines

    The Ruskies and Chinese don't have to hack our? power grid. We? fuck it up ourselves.

  • YellowSnowYellowSnow Moderator, Swaye's Wigwam Posts: 33,796
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    BearsWiin said:

    BearsWiin said:

    Mosster47 said:

    At bottom of Kremlin's neurotic view of world affairs is traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity. Originally, this was insecurity of a peaceful agricultural people trying to live on vast exposed plain in neighborhood of fierce nomadic peoples. To this was added, as Russia came into contact with economically advanced West, fear of more competent, more powerful, more highly organized societies in that area. But this latter type of insecurity was one which afflicted rather Russian rulers than Russian people; for Russian rulers have invariably sensed that their rule was relatively archaic in form fragile and artificial in its psychological foundation, unable to stand comparison or contact with political systems of Western countries. For this reason they have always feared foreign penetration, feared direct contact between Western world and their own, feared what would happen if Russians learned truth about world without or if foreigners learned truth about world within. And they have learned to seek security only in patient but deadly struggle for total destruction of rival power, never in compacts and compromises with it. - George Kennan, 1946

    Sounds like Cuogs to me.

    Or Quooks. The Ruskies have always had an inferiority complex vis-a-vis the traditional great powers.
    Washington isn't a great power, first off.

    Second, I've always wondered how the world would have reacted if the Germans and the Japanese just decided to go after Russia first and left everyone else alone.

    I get the feeling the rest of the planet would have given a collective "meh" while it unfolded.
    We are the 2nd greatest power in the West and USC really respects us more than Oregon or UCLA.

    Second, yes, this is a very interesting counterfactual. People forget that the Russians and Japanese did fight a tuff little war in 1939 before the European war got under way and the Russians won (pay back for 1905 I reckon). Obviously to get to Russia, Germany had to conquer Poland first and we know that when they did this French and British declared war, but then proceeded to do nothing but sit behind the Maginot Line. Would they have decided to attack Nazi Germany at some point if Hitler had never decided to invade the West? Who knows?

    I can't imagine that in the event both Japan and Germany invaded the USSR in 1941 Roosevelt would have cut off Japan's supply of US oil. We might very well have gone "meh".
    Fear of a Japanese attack on the Soviet Far East in late 1941 is precisely why FDR had Acheson put the Japanese oil embargo in place in August. He understood that a Eurasian continent divided between fascist Germany and imperialist Japan would be absolutely disastrous for the United States.
    True. And Roosevelt certainly did everything he could at the time in terms of economic warfare to bait Japan into taking sucker punching us?. But what if the Japanese had decided to take the risk of focusing solely on securing their raw materials in the Dutch East Indies and not preemptively attacking HI and the Philippines? Would we? have still found a way to declare war on Imperial Japan regardless?
    No
    Ok, Pacific War Superiority Guy, what am I missing? We cut-off their oil supply, stoped selling them all other raw materials and froze their assets. What other economic pressure could FDR applied?
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